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Author Topic: The 3-D Effect  (Read 12819 times)

Ray

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The 3-D Effect
« on: November 10, 2007, 11:06:39 am »

Recently whilst wandering around the Night Bazaar in Chiang Mai, I espied from a distance what appeared to be large and very detailed photographic portraits hanging on a wall. I was surprised that anyone would be selling, here in Chiang Mai and in a market for beads and bangles, such huge enlargements which surely must have come from an MFDB and wide format printer. However, as I approached closer, I could see people painting and realised with some disbelief that what appeared to be extraordinary B&W photographs were in fact charcoal drawings. I saw people peering through a loupe at postcard size photos trying to faithfully reproduce every hair and wrinkle with fine tipped brushes.

After staring with some amazement at many different protraits for a long while, I turned to one of the painters and jokingly asked, "Wouldn't it be easier just to make a big photograph?' Surprisingly, the artist spoke enough English to give me a long spiel about the extra 3-dimensionality that his drawings had compared to photos which were much more 2-dimensional. He wasn't just copying the photo. He was improving it.

I had to agree and was reminded of the long discussion on this forum recently about claims that MFDBs can impart a greater 3-D effect to any image than 35mm can. But this 3-D effect I was witnessing wasn't subtle. It jumped out and smacked you in the face.

Here are a couple of shots I took with flash of the general scene. As you can see, it can be very exhausting work.

[attachment=3786:attachment]  [attachment=3787:attachment]

And here are a couple of photos of drawings of photos which I shot in the hotel room after buying the drawings of the photos.

[attachment=3788:attachment]  [attachment=3789:attachment]

I'm not sure if some of that 3-dimensionality has been lost due to the fact I'm using a miniature Canon 5D to copy these.  What do you think?

(You big sensor guys ain't got nothing on those Chiang Mai painters   .)
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amsp

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2007, 11:29:37 am »

I do work like that even with my 1Ds, it's just a matter of short DoF and some good raw editing. Naturally my P25 delivers even more "umpfh" so to speak, but it's hardly some unattainable magic to get that kind of look.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 11:30:58 am by amsp »
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Ray

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2007, 12:08:14 pm »

Quote
I do work like that even with my 1Ds, it's just a matter of short DoF and some good raw editing. Naturally my P25 delivers even more "umpfh" so to speak, but it's hardly some unattainable magic to get that kind of look.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151729\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Show me something that matches the 3-D quality of the above charcoal drawings.
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amsp

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2007, 12:33:09 pm »

Don't take this the wrong way, but you'll have to excuse me if I don't feel the need to prove myself to random people online. I'm just telling it like I see it, if you choose not to believe it by all means go ahead. I just value my privacy more than convincing you, that's all  
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Ray

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2007, 12:48:27 pm »

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Don't take this the wrong way, but you'll have to excuse me if I don't feel the need to prove myself to random people online. I'm just telling it like I see it, if you choose not to believe it by all means go ahead. I just value my privacy more than convincing you, that's all 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151751\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't consider it proving yourself but demonstrating a principle. You must have come across the expression, 'Seeing is believing', and 'A picture is worth a thousand words' (incorrectly attributed to Confucius, I believe.) We're talking here about visual phenomena. No show, no go.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 12:49:47 pm by Ray »
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jonstewart

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2007, 12:55:19 pm »

I'd like to see the original painting... not a 2 dimensional photograph of them. I think this whole discussion is going nowhere!

...and I do believe you, Ray, when you say the charcoal portraits were beautifully 3d. The fact that you have shown some 2d photos to reinforce your point doesn't really come into it.
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Graham Mitchell

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2007, 01:13:06 pm »

I don't see how a 2D photo of a 2D surface could lead to loss of an effect. I don't see anything special in those charcoals either. I was expecting something more photorealistic. Each to their own.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2007, 01:21:07 pm »

I find those 2D (5D) photos of the charcoal drawings to have excellent 3D qualities, much more so than any of the MFDB examples in that other thread.

But maybe I'm biased, since I use a 5D myself.  
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marcwilson

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2007, 01:21:29 pm »

don't really understand the thread but anyway...the style of (alomost photographic) hyper real painting can be very clearly seen in the work of chuck close also.

Marc
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 01:24:17 pm by marcwilson »
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Gary Ferguson

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2007, 01:26:01 pm »

One of the visual properties that is almost unique to photography is the rendition of out of focus areas.

In a photograph it's an extremely subtle effect, comprising not just loss of resolution but the superimposition of a luminous and enlarged halo around the underlying detail. In these charcoal drawings of photographs the in-focus areas are well copied (if with a more restricted tonal pallette), but the out-of-focus areas are mere smudges.
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amsp

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2007, 01:26:29 pm »

Ray, I used a 50mm f/1,4 at the closest focusing distance, go try for yourself instead. I think those paintings are impressive for being paintings, but I hardly think they beat a good photo either in 3D-effect nor realism (obviously). If you need inspiration just go buy some books by famous photographers, Richard Avedon for example. It's just some basic photography techniques, not a voodoo ritual we're talking about here.
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Ray

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2007, 01:28:49 pm »

Quote
I'd like to see the original painting... not a 2 dimensional photograph of them. I think this whole discussion is going nowhere!

...and I do believe you, Ray, when you say the charcoal portraits were beautifully 3d. The fact that you have shown some 2d photos to reinforce your point doesn't really come into it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151755\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, as Foto-z already mentioned, it's all 2-D whether photo or painting or photo of painting (actually drawing rather than an oil painting which often does have a slight physical 3-dimensionality). It could be that something of that 3-D impression has been lost in the reproduction using a small sensor camera or perhaps a loss due to a less than ideal photoshop processing on a poorly calibrated laptop, which I've got no control over in my present circumstances.
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Ray

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2007, 01:35:05 pm »

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Ray, I used a 50mm f/1,4 at the closest focusing distance, go try for yourself instead. I think those paintings are impressive for being paintings, but I hardly think they beat a good photo either in 3D-effect nor realism (obviously). If you need inspiration just go buy some books by famous photographers, Richard Avedon for example. It's just some basic photography techniques, not a voodoo ritual we're talking about here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hey! Did I give the impression that I thought this was some sort of magic? Not so. What I think is happening here is that these underpaid, struggling artists have identified the qualities in an image that lead to an enhanced 3-D effect and are exploiting that in their reproductions of the photos.

BTW, my 50/1.4 is not sharp at f1.4. I'm disappointed with it. I might see if I can get it calibrated when I return to Australia.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 01:38:20 pm by Ray »
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amsp

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2007, 01:52:23 pm »

Quote
Hey! Did I give the impression that I thought this was some sort of magic? Not so. What I think is happening here is that these underpaid, struggling artists have identified the qualities in an image that lead to an enhanced 3-D effect and are exploiting that in their reproductions of the photos.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You gave the impression in your initial post that these paintings had something "more" than what can be accomplished with photography, which I find quite silly really. And, since you needed visual proof I concluded that you have neither seen photos like that nor know how to make them yourself. That's all. What I'm saying is that using a large aperture at the closest focusing distance in combination with a good b/w conversion will give you that "3D-feel" you are looking for. Now go try it yourself or just enjoy your paintings  

cheers
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Ray

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2007, 02:10:33 pm »

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You gave the impression in your initial post that these paintings had something "more" than what can be accomplished with photography, which I find quite silly really. And, since you needed visual proof I concluded that you have neither seen photos like that nor know how to make them yourself. That's all. What I'm saying is that using a large aperture at the closest focusing distance in combination with a good b/w conversion will give you that "3D-feel" you are looking for. Now go try it yourself or just enjoy your paintings   

cheers
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151765\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Now you're being silly. All photos of 3-D subjects have a 3-D effect. It results from the phenomena of far objects being smaller than near object and the fact that objects that are partially obscured by something must be obscured by something in front and not behind. The brain thus recognises a 3-dimensional image from these basic clues that exist in all images of 3-dimensional subjects.

What I'm trying to address here are the other qualities that enhance that 3-D effect and they would appear to be light, shade and contrast as well as shallow DoF.

What I would suggest is, if one understands precisely what qualities, what exaggerations are going to enhance that 3-D effect, then possibly a skilled person with a fine charcoal brush can make those subtle changes which might be impossible, or at least extremely difficult, with the broad brush approach of controlled lighting.
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amsp

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2007, 02:22:03 pm »

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Now you're being silly. All photos of 3-D subjects have a 3-D effect. It results from the phenomena of far objects being smaller than near object and the fact that objects that are partially obscured by something must be obscured by something in front and not behind. The brain thus recognises a 3-dimensional image from these basic clues that exist in all images of 3-dimensional subjects.

What I'm trying to address here are the other qualities that enhance that 3-D effect and they would appear to be light, shade and contrast as well as shallow DoF.
LOL, I thought that was MY point

Quote
What I would suggest is, if one understands precisely what qualities, what exaggerations are going to enhance that 3-D effect, then possibly a skilled person with a fine charcoal brush can make those subtle changes which might be impossible, or at least extremely difficult, with the broad brush approach of controlled lighting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151769\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are we still talking about photography here? Wasn't the question in this post how to get the effect you see in those paintings?
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EricWHiss

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2007, 02:22:27 pm »

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He wasn't just copying the photo. He was improving it.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151725\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi Ray,
Were you able to find out what kinds of things they were doing to improve the photos in their reproduction, ie. what were they adding or taking away that gave it more 3D?   What would have been great is also a photo of the postcard their were painting from so we could see for ourselves what they did to give the image more depth.
Eric
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kaelaria

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2007, 02:26:36 pm »

Quote
BTW, my 50/1.4 is not sharp at f1.4. I'm disappointed with it. I might see if I can get it calibrated when I return to Australia.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Mine isn't either, but is great at 1.8 and razor sharp by 2.8.  I haven't seen a single online review of ane that differs.  I wouldn't bother with spending money to make it better - seems the norm.
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amsp

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2007, 02:31:38 pm »

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Mine isn't either, but is great at 1.8 and razor sharp by 2.8.  I haven't seen a single online review of ane that differs.  I wouldn't bother with spending money to make it better - seems the norm.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151774\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that the point of f/1.4 is not to get razor sharpness, it's to get the particular "feel" of extremely short DoF. JMHO
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samuel_js

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The 3-D Effect
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2007, 02:33:24 pm »

Quote
You gave the impression in your initial post that these paintings had something "more" than what can be accomplished with photography, which I find quite silly really. And, since you needed visual proof I concluded that you have neither seen photos like that nor know how to make them yourself. That's all. What I'm saying is that using a large aperture at the closest focusing distance in combination with a good b/w conversion will give you that "3D-feel" you are looking for. Now go try it yourself or just enjoy your paintings   

cheers
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151765\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think this is a silly-kind post that should be avoided in this forum. You obviously don't know what you're talking about, and for sure don't use medium format. The proof is your lack of arguments for this debate. I'm sorry to be rude but there's someone here who's getting tired of seeing this forum convert into an endless fight between members.
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