New Leaf AFi Cameras

[ynp]

?
We are just one year away from the next generation of MFDB sensors, and nothing says that the Dalsa sensors currently used by Sinar and Leaf will still be competitive compared to the next generation sensors from Kodak used by PhaseOne and Hassy. Buying into the Hy6 platform might very well mean lock oneself out of the next winning sensors.

Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sinar uses Dalsa AND Kodak sensors for different lines of product. 54m and 54h are Kodak.
Yevgeny

[mattlap2]

Sinar uses Dalsa AND Kodak sensors for different lines of product. 54m and 54h are Kodak.
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141091\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As a matter of fact Kodak and Sinar jointly developed the chip that was used in 54H and later in the H25 and Imacon 132 backs.   Sinar had an exclusive 1 year option on that chip in the very beginning.

Sinar has evaluated all the chips and they have designed backs around what they have felt are the best chip for the back.   The 23 back was a Phillips (became Dalsa), the 44 was a Kodak chip, the 43 back was a dalsa, the 54H and 54M backs are Kodak, and now the Emotion 54, Emotion 75 and Evolution 75 are all Dalsa.   The current backs being all dalsa probably more reflects the jenoptik influence since I believe all of their backs have always been dalsa.

However I do remember being told that both the 33mp dalsa and 39 mp Kodak were heavily tested before they made their choice.

[thsinar]

So it is: thanks Mat, for the clarifications about sensors.

Nobody will be locked out by investing in the Hy6, should new (winning) sensors be out.

Thierry

As a matter of fact Kodak and Sinar jointly developed the chip that was used in 54H and later in the H25 and Imacon 132 backs.   Sinar had an exclusive 1 year option on that chip in the very beginning.

Sinar has evaluated all the chips and they have designed backs around what they have felt are the best chip for the back.   The 23 back was a Phillips (became Dalsa), the 44 was a Kodak chip, the 43 back was a dalsa, the 54H and 54M backs are Kodak, and now the Emotion 54, Emotion 75 and Evolution 75 are all Dalsa.   The current backs being all dalsa probably more reflects the jenoptik influence since I believe all of their backs have always been dalsa.

However I do remember being told that both the 33mp dalsa and 39 mp Kodak were heavily tested before they made their choice.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141096\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[rainer_v]

So it is: thanks Mat, for the clarifications about sensors.

Nobody will be locked out by investing in the Hy6, should new (winning) sensors be out.

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141098\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

and i hardly doubt that kodak will become in the next generation "the" better sensor.
as it seems to me dalsa is still with the current generation the better sensor at lower isos,
only hi-iso performance of the kodaks is  better,- but stil far away from canon and probably of the new nikons.

[phila]

and nothing says that the Dalsa sensors currently used by Sinar and Leaf will still be competitive compared to the next generation sensors from Kodak used by PhaseOne and Hassy. Buying into the Hy6 platform might very well mean lock oneself out of the next winning sensors.

Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

equally...

and nothing says that the Kodak sensors currently used by PhaseOne and Hassy will still be competitive compared to the next generation sensors from Dalsa used by Sinar and Leaf. Buying into the Hassy platform might very well mean lock oneself out of the next winning sensors.

[godtfred]

Who said that those licenses were for sales?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I certainly did'nt, if you read the next bit of my sentence...

Unless they are barred from licencing the software/firmware protocol... then its not going to happen at all, ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140939\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thom]

I'd add that the Leaf A75 is probably the most misleading number out there... coming from the A22 where the figure used to mean something.



Bernard,

my guess:

A54 = more or less 5000x4000Pix = 22MPix
A65 = more or less 6000x5000Pix = 28MPix
A75 = more or less 7000x5000Pix = 33MPix

not mathematicaly correct, but it gives you the idea...

[BJNY]

Certainly, that's how they were named, but which photographer thinks that way, who here even knows what 4000, 5000, 6000, and 7000 pixels translates into?

 

my guess:

A54 = more or less 5000x4000Pix = 22MPix
A65 = more or less 6000x5000Pix = 28MPix
A75 = more or less 7000x5000Pix = 33MPix

not mathematicaly correct, but it gives you the idea...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[eronald]

Of course, it's an interesting question exactly what "testing" and "design" means these days, in Switzerland and in Japan.

When Japan's Canon "design" a camera around a CMOS sensor, they actually spec a custom CMOS process, design and make a stepper (with thir own optics) for a "fullframe" sensor, lay out a line which can run their process, and then fab the chips they designed on the production line they designed and built using their own production equipment, partly. Oh, and they also design some image processing (Digic) chips but those aren't necessarily run off on the same line, but maybe another process line which they also made. And by the way, they also make the camera body but this includes some purchased sub-assemblies. If the whole camera doesn't work well, then you can bet that the appropriate department in the process above will be told to improve its components !

In contrast, the back companies are hostage to their suppliers, regarding chip specs, and even the quality of the delivered chips.


Edmund

As a matter of fact Kodak and Sinar jointly developed the chip that was used in 54H and later in the H25 and Imacon 132 backs.   Sinar had an exclusive 1 year option on that chip in the very beginning.

Sinar has evaluated all the chips and they have designed backs around what they have felt are the best chip for the back.   The 23 back was a Phillips (became Dalsa), the 44 was a Kodak chip, the 43 back was a dalsa, the 54H and 54M backs are Kodak, and now the Emotion 54, Emotion 75 and Evolution 75 are all Dalsa.   The current backs being all dalsa probably more reflects the jenoptik influence since I believe all of their backs have always been dalsa.

However I do remember being told that both the 33mp dalsa and 39 mp Kodak were heavily tested before they made their choice.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141096\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Harris Edelman]

Certainly, that's how they were named, but which photographer thinks that way, who here even knows what 4000, 5000, 6000, and 7000 pixels translates into?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141174\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You probably meant those as rhetorical questions, but hey.

I won't say that working knowledge of photometrics and photogrammetry never hurt anyone, but I'm still fine.

As for the translations, at the physical sensor level:

(pixel count) * (pixel size) = (frame dimension)
(frame dimension) / (pixel count) = (pixel size)

Yes, I'm conflating pixel and photosite. Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile.  


-H.

[BJNY]

Deleted

[BernardLanguillier]

equally...

and nothing says that the Kodak sensors currently used by PhaseOne and Hassy will still be competitive compared to the next generation sensors from Dalsa used by Sinar and Leaf. Buying into the Hassy platform might very well mean lock oneself out of the next winning sensors.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141112\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You are absolutely correct. Mamiya is the only platform today that is proven to be open.

All the rest is theoretical marketing talk.

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

As Thierry already pointed out only Phase can decide to make an adapter for the Hy6.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140984\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry was very careful in his wording, he only mentioned mechanial adapter and never discussed in details the electronical aspects of the deal... that are obviously the important ones.

But if Phase would like to make full use of the electronic couplings of the Hy6 (WB sensor for example) they will have to take a license from Jenoptik. Jenoptik has the exclusive right to decide who is to have access to the firmware and who isn't, when it comes to digital backs. That is why the maker of the camera, F&H, will offer the Hy6 as a film-camera only (which can take digital backs from both Leaf and Sinar).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140984\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Let me ask again, does this really depend on Phaseone willingness to pay a license?

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Let me ask again, does this really depend on Phaseone willingness to pay a license?

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141719\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

2 days... no answer... my personnal conclusion is that Phaseone would not be able to join the Hy6 wagon even if they were willing to pay a reasonnably prices licence fee.

I would of course love to be proven wrong with a clear statement from Thierry on this but I don't think we will get such a statement.

My personnal view on this situation is that Sinar is trying to protect their backs the same way Hasselblad is by preventing a serious competitor from being able to offer their backs on the Hy6 platform.

That is of course their prerogative, but it will prevent me from considering the Hy6 platform the same way I am not considering the Hassy platform.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Photomangreg]

2 days... no answer... my personnal conclusion is that Phaseone would not be able to join the Hy6 wagon even if they were willing to pay a reasonnably prices licence fee.

I would of course love to be proven wrong with a clear statement from Thierry on this but I don't think we will get such a statement.

My personnal view on this situation is that Sinar is trying to protect their backs the same way Hasselblad is by preventing a serious competitor from being able to offer their backs on the Hy6 platform.

That is of course their prerogative, but it will prevent me from considering the Hy6 platform the same way I am not considering the Hassy platform.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142069\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

According to Sinars new(?) website they are an "open interface for user-friendly back adaptations", I iamgine user-friendly translates to those that have paid a license fee   Interesting to note, that the Hy6 advertises the rotatable back, yet the leaf AfI will not be able to rotate on the same camera?!?!  How open of a platform is it really?

[Graham Mitchell]

According to Sinars new(?) website they are an "open interface for user-friendly back adaptations", I iamgine user-friendly translates to those that have paid a license fee   Interesting to note, that the Hy6 advertises the rotatable back, yet the leaf AfI will not be able to rotate on the same camera?!?!  How open of a platform is it really?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I believe that the adapter which attaches the digital back to the camera, and is NOT PART OF THE CAMERA is the part which will allow rotation, in the case of Sinar. Leaf could obviously do the same with their own adapter if they so choose.

2 days... no answer... my personnal conclusion is that Phaseone would not be able to join the Hy6 wagon even if they were willing to pay a reasonnably prices licence fee.

I think you are jumping to conclusions. It is up to P1 to approach Sinar about this. Can anyone confirm that P1 is even interested and approached Sinar? And if so, what was the response? I didn't think so

Even if Sinar is being protectionist, this is still a more open platform than Hasselblad. The new camera and lenses work with old bodies and old backs. There is nothing like the 28mm Hassy lens fiasco. Furthermore, you will always be able to buy/rent backs from two companies to work with this system. more choice is a good thing, right?

[BernardLanguillier]

I think you are jumping to conclusions. It is up to P1 to approach Sinar about this. Can anyone confirm that P1 is even interested and approached Sinar? And if so, what was the response? I didn't think so

Even if Sinar is being protectionist, this is still a more open platform than Hasselblad. The new camera and lenses work with old bodies and old backs. There is nothing like the 28mm Hassy lens fiasco. Furthermore, you will always be able to buy/rent backs from two companies to work with this system. more choice is a good thing, right?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142077\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You know, I'd really love to be proven wrong. I have nothing against Sinar and would consider the platform at a certain point of time if I were convinced that it has enough potential and openess.

All it would take is a clear statement publicly explaining what it would take for Phaseone of any other vendor to be able to integrate their backs with the Hy6 platform. The very fact that such clear communication is missing is fishy to start with. We all know how marketing tries to bend realities and turn shortcomings into features.

The Hy6 is indeed probably more open that the H3D, and people with an existing set of lenses will for sure benefit from the platform, but it is far from enough to convince newcomers who have other options like Mamiya that is fully open, cheaper and has also a very credible lens line up (better on the wide end).

Regards,
Bernard

[Graham Mitchell]

The Hy6 is indeed probably more open that the H3D, and people with an existing set of lenses will for sure benefit from the platform, but it is far from enough to convince newcomers who have other options like Mamiya that is fully open, cheaper and has also a very credible lens line up (better on the wide end).

Well you make a good point about the price of Mamiya and the 28mm lens, but the system has no waist level finder option, and the flash sync is only 1/125. This won't matter to some people but for others it could be a deal breaker. There is more of a difference between these systems than mere price.

I'd be concerned about Mamiya being able to keep up, after the extremely slow delivery of new products over the past few years. Again, if you can find all you need from the used market then that may not be a concern.

[TechTalk]

Even if Sinar is being protectionist, this is still a more open platform than Hasselblad. The new camera and lenses work with old bodies and old backs. There is nothing like the 28mm Hassy lens fiasco. Furthermore, you will always be able to buy/rent backs from two companies to work with this system. more choice is a good thing, right?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142077\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've always been curious as to why I've never seen a discussion regarding "open" or "closed" digital backs. If you own a Leaf or Phase One back for Hasselblad "V" or "H" or Contax or Rollei etc. and you'd really love to use your back with a 28mm lens on an SLR body–why not buy the Mamiya 28mm lens and body (an "open system"), take off the digital back camera mount, mount a Mamiya 645 plate and switch back and forth with your existing system? It isn't the most convenient solution, but it's easily done by removing four screws and attaching a different camera mount. The back is part of an "open" system is it not?... or is it only cameras that are "open" or "closed"?

Of course, I'm trying to stir a little thoughtful debate as I realize that you (the user) can't switch Leaf or Phase from one 6x6 or 645 system to another by interchangeable camera adapters. Other digital backs will let you do that. More choice is a good thing, right?

So the question is... are some digital backs part of a "closed system" by limiting what cameras you can use them with, while other backs are "open systems" that let you switch camera makes and models as you desire? Just wondering if only cameras are considered "open or closed".

Please wait while I get my fire-retardant suit. It could get warm in here.

[thsinar]

Dear Bernard,

as written by foto_z, it is not up to Sinar to state anything about Phase's possibility/willingness or readiness to jump onto the Hy6 wagon. It is Phase which has to clarify this question, if somebody.

I say it again, for the 3rd or 4th time on this forum: it has ALWAYS been the back manufacturer's prerogative to look for an adaption of his back to a certain camera platform, NEVER the other way round, and therefore to INFORM the market accordingly.

So I wont make any statement on this which could prove me wrong in the future.

Please understand this and do not take all as things which need to be hidden from the users. There is nothing fishy here, or if, then be honest and admit that it's fishy from both sides.

I have been here for quite some time, trying to give as reliable information as possible. It is difficult enough, with situations changing sometimes and proving yourself wrong a few weeks after having made an "official" statement. Don't ask for me to make claims which are not my or Sinar's specific prerogative.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

You know, I'd really love to be proven wrong. I have nothing against Sinar and would consider the platform at a certain point of time if I were convinced that it has enough potential and openess.

All it would take is a clear statement publicly explaining what it would take for Phaseone of any other vendor to be able to integrate their backs with the Hy6 platform. The very fact that such clear communication is missing is fishy to start with. We all know how marketing tries to bend realities and turn shortcomings into features.

The Hy6 is indeed probably more open that the H3D, and people with an existing set of lenses will for sure benefit from the platform, but it is far from enough to convince newcomers who have other options like Mamiya that is fully open, cheaper and has also a very credible lens line up (better on the wide end).

Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142081\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]