Topic: Drobo Data Storage (Read 24289 times)

Fred Ragland · « **on:** September 05, 2007, 11:20:55 am »

Like many of you, I am accumulating a large collection of hard drives and wiring snaggles. I've read about Drobo (Data Robotics) as a way to simplify exernal storage requirements and saw a mention of it on Jeff Schewe's PhotoshopNews Lightroom Live Tour report.

Is anyone on the list using Drobo? If so, what do you consider its pros and cons to be?

Thanks in advance,

Fred Ragland

RonBoyd · « **Reply #1 on:** September 08, 2007, 09:47:50 am »

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Like many of you, I am accumulating a large collection of hard drives and wiring snaggles. I've read about Drobo (Data Robotics) [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137481\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Fred,

Nice catch. I would be interested in how it compares with the soon-to-be-released Windows Home Server. I suspect the pricing will be comaparable but with greater capabilities in WHS.

Ron

scott_dobry · « **Reply #2 on:** September 08, 2007, 10:44:24 am »

I've been using the drobo for a few months now. It has a very easy Mac-like setup (even the packaging is Mac-inspired) for someone who wouldn't be completely comfortable with setting up a RAID. It seems very well made and the software seems good.

The fan can be a tiny bit noisy for the sonically sensitive user but no more noisy than my G5 tower's fans which I got used to a long time ago.

Also, it's not the fastest thing around. There's no problem copying the 4 GB daily job to it but transfering a whole archive would probably take pretty long.

All in all, I like it.

Wayne Fox · « **Reply #3 on:** September 08, 2007, 10:48:46 pm »

I chatted with them at photoshop world for a while. Seems like a terrific product - the concept is wonderful, about as painless to use as any external drive I've seen, especially considering the ability to just add drives or increase drive sizes pretty much on the fly.

The only negative is the slow USB 2.0 interface.

After visiting with quite a few photographers they said they are currently reviewing options and may design a unit with FW 800.

If they do I'll buy one. May buy one anyway, since I'd probably just use it to backup files, not work with the files.

free1000 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 10, 2007, 02:15:20 pm »

This device uses a proprietary storage method.

If the data became corrupt, who would be able to recover the data? There won't be any third party data recovery tools (as you can get with RAIDs).

I really like the idea of this device. But one has to think of the worst case scenario and how one would recover from it.

I wish the company and its developers well, but I would only feel happy using this as a secondary archive rather than as the only copy of data. However, in that case, a cheaper solution such as the Sonnet Fusion eSATA 500P enclosure would be just as effective but have a faster data transfer time due to the eSATA interface.

jjj · « **Reply #5 on:** September 10, 2007, 02:26:50 pm »

I've been looking into this device recently as it's a brilliant idea.
But, some people have had issues with it and as noted above it's proprietary. So only Drobo can sort it out, if possible. So you may need to back it up which kind of defeats the point. Though I believe it does have battery power in case of powercuts, which is reassuring.

The major stumbling block seems to be the fact that it's simply a big [albeit clever] ext drive. Firewire 800, Ethernet, NAS are what it needs to realise its full potential.
And it's a tad too expensive.
I'll wait for v2.0 myself.

Wayne Fox · « **Reply #6 on:** September 10, 2007, 09:17:41 pm »

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This device uses a proprietary storage method.

If the data became corrupt, who would be able to recover the data? There won't be any third party data recovery tools (as you can get with RAIDs).

I really like the idea of this device. But one has to think of the worst case scenario and how one would recover from it.

I wish the company and its developers well, but I would only feel happy using this as a secondary archive rather than as the only copy of data. However, in that case, a cheaper solution such as the Sonnet Fusion eSATA 500P enclosure would be just as effective but have a faster data transfer time due to the eSATA interface.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138464\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

One of it's strengths is it backs itself up. Bascially it is a dyamic raid device, and will use whatever drives and sizes you install to create the most efficient raid possible, be it striped or raid 5, or a combination. As you add drives, or change to larger drives, it rebuilds the data and again makes the best use of the space.

So a "painless, dynamic" 4 drive raid. Theoretically at least. It hasn't been around too long.

I do agree, I think it's a great device for secondary backup, but probably not suited for a working drive.

CatOne · « **Reply #7 on:** September 13, 2007, 06:00:48 pm »

I think it's a neat device. Expandable... can hold a fair bit of data (though the USB 2.0 limitation imposes a maximum volume size of 2 TB which means if you use 1 TB drives you'll have a 2 TB volume and a ~700 GB volume), is pretty small and thus portable.

Main negative in my mind is the USB 2.0 thing. That makes it slow (I think it's maybe 15 MB/sec read/write. USB 2.0 is "rated" at ~45 MB/sec but that's a bald-faced lie... USB 2.0 sucks as a data protocol compared to Firewire (400 || 800) or eSATA).

Personally, I use an Infrant ReadyNAS. It has 4 drives in RAID 5, and it can easily share them via AFP/SMB/NFS/DAV/HTTP(s), etc. So I slap it on the network and can get to all my files from any machine. If you have some cruddy Windows machines alongside those nice shiny Macs then this is a HUGE plus, because with Drobo you need to format it as HFS+ or NTFS which means sharing data is a lot tougher.

Anyway... if you're willing to spend the 45 minutes to set up up and have a network the ReadyNAS IMO is the best bet (it's also faster -- I get maybe 30 MB/sec to it). The ReadyNAS is ~650 "empty" plus the drive costs, so it's $150 more than the Drobo. If you can live with the Drobo's limitations (volume size limit and speed), its extra simplicity may make it a better fit.

Oh -- and just to be 100% clear on this -- RAID (or DROBO's proprietary protection stuff) is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT a backup. LET ME BE AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE ON THIS. NEVER assume that you can just have data on a "protected" device and have that be your "one true source" of your valuable images. Because this does NOT protect against the cause of 45% of all data loss, which is user error. It also doesn't protect against natural disasters (earthquake, fire, sprinklers go off), so you should ALWAYS have at least one additional copy, and you should ALWAYS keep it off-site.

Personally, when I import from LightRoom I have one copy of my images go to my local drive, and I have one set of images go straight to the ReadyNAS. I really should have a 3rd copy offsite and once every couple months I update an external HD that I swap with one at a friend's house.

Chris_Brown · « **Reply #8 on:** September 16, 2007, 01:39:06 pm »

Has anyone tried Amazon's Simple Storage Service?

DarkPenguin · « **Reply #9 on:** September 16, 2007, 02:18:18 pm »

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Oh -- and just to be 100% clear on this -- RAID (or DROBO's proprietary protection stuff) is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT a backup. LET ME BE AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE ON THIS. NEVER assume that you can just have data on a "protected" device and have that be your "one true source" of your valuable images. Because this does NOT protect against the cause of 45% of all data loss, which is user error. It also doesn't protect against natural disasters (earthquake, fire, sprinklers go off), so you should ALWAYS have at least one additional copy, and you should ALWAYS keep it off-site.

My worst data loss occurred when I powered on two external hard drives in reverse order. They ended up on the wrong drive letters. Not paying attention I let my sync software destroy all my new files. Then I did my system upgrade that whacked the drive with the third copy of the data.

I recovered thousands of images off of DVD. But I wasn't religious about burning DVDs so I missed a few. (Including one of my all time favs. I still have it. At 1024 wide.)

The loose nut at the end of the keyboard is a bigger problem than most of us would like to admit. But it sure nailed me.

Kevin W Smith · « **Reply #10 on:** September 16, 2007, 04:39:03 pm »

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This device uses a proprietary storage method.

If the data became corrupt, who would be able to recover the data? There won't be any third party data recovery tools (as you can get with RAIDs).

I really like the idea of this device. But one has to think of the worst case scenario and how one would recover from it.

I wish the company and its developers well, but I would only feel happy using this as a secondary archive rather than as the only copy of data. However, in that case, a cheaper solution such as the Sonnet Fusion eSATA 500P enclosure would be just as effective but have a faster data transfer time due to the eSATA interface.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138464\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree. Like the Lacie Big Disk, if one drive goes down you potentially lose everything on both drives; it's happened to a friend, and is about to happen to my studio mate if, if the mechanical clunks and groans from a dying hard drive are any indication (they are).

The Drobo claims that it can rebuild a failed drive automagically, but until I see it work every time without fail I remain...skeptical. I'm more inclined to stick with "standard" solutions like external drives and RAID boxes.

CatOne · « **Reply #11 on:** September 16, 2007, 09:14:12 pm »

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I agree. Like the Lacie Big Disk, if one drive goes down you potentially lose everything on both drives; it's happened to a friend, and is about to happen to my studio mate if, if the mechanical clunks and groans from a dying hard drive are any indication (they are).

The Drobo claims that it can rebuild a failed drive automagically, but until I see it work every time without fail I remain...skeptical. I'm more inclined to stick with "standard" solutions like external drives and RAID boxes.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139816\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Drobo's ability to rebuild automatically in the case of a failed drive isn't something I'm overly worried about. That's not that difficult to do -- it's similar technology to RAID. So I'd pretty confident in this. And Drobo's flexibility with this (namely that you can mix and match drives and grow the volume by growing the file sizes) is a significant benefit. I'd be WAY more likely to use a Drobo for external local storage than something like the La Cie disks. If the La Cie loses a drive you'll lose all your data -- with the Drobo this is specifically what they're guarding AGAINST.

Again, though, the one thing I am vehement about is that you cannot have this be your ONLY mechanism for ensuring safety of data. RAID is not a backup. It is protection against hardware failure. There are other mechanism for data loss than the failure of a hard drive. Many more

Kevin W Smith · « **Reply #12 on:** September 17, 2007, 04:21:37 am »

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Drobo's ability to rebuild automatically in the case of a failed drive isn't something I'm overly worried about. That's not that difficult to do -- it's similar technology to RAID.

Yeah, but it isn't RAID, it still uses a proprietary hardware controller to make it's magic happen, and requires software to manage that isn't needed with other solutions, which introduces another yet potential failure point.

Quote

Again, though, the one thing I am vehement about is that you cannot have this be your ONLY mechanism for ensuring safety of data. RAID is not a backup. It is protection against hardware failure.

Exactly, which is why RAID is great as a work drive where speed is important, and lets you recover from a single drive failure. But the Drobo isn't built for that, it's built for backup. As clever as it is, I'd rather trust my work on hard drives that can be plugged into any computer without a proprietary controller and software layer in the loop.

It's already a problem with external 1394 and USB drives that sometimes need to be cracked open and have the bare drives plugged straight into a system to get at the data. That's bad enough, but at least you're normally dealing with standard file systems and interfaces so that data recovery is possible directly from the operating system, and/or utilities that support the process. I've been dealing with this for years and it's a constant, ongoing problem that I don't see this thing solving, as slick as it may seem to be.

IOW, no matter how much better it is than similar systems, the proprietary controller and management software are still the weak points in the chain as an archiving solution. If the box that holds the drives goes down, there's nothing you can do without repairing or replacing exactly the same box. And if the host computer goes down, you have to install their proprietary software onto something else to get your data back...which may or may not work, especially if the company goes out of business, and their last firmware/software rev doesn't fly on a newer computer...

The Drobo is certainly a nice backup product from a workflow perspective, but is it the best archive solution? Not in my opinion.

kaelaria · « **Reply #13 on:** September 17, 2007, 08:48:24 pm »

It's MAJOR drawback for any use except backup, is the excrusiatingly slow transfer speed of USB2. I had contacted them earlier this year, in hopes they had a new product with a high speed interface on the drawing board. they flat out said no, and they have no interest in doing so. They rationalized the USB connection as being the lowest common denominator, and think most people will buy because of that.

Personally, I'm looking for a high speed, networkable (100/1000), JBOD server. I need about 4TB at the moment, to convert a library of DVDs, and it will need room for expansion. Right now there are solutions, but they are in the $1000-$1500 + drives range.

It looks like a cool product with potential, but there are better and/or cheaper solutions for anyone looking for just a backup unit.

kaelaria · « **Reply #14 on:** September 17, 2007, 09:01:42 pm »

Something with all the benefits of the drobo and none of the drawbacks is this: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/30155/75/

It doesn't have enough space for what I need (only 4 bays) but if were expandable or had 8 bays, I would get it.

CatOne · « **Reply #15 on:** September 17, 2007, 10:17:42 pm »

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Something with all the benefits of the drobo and none of the drawbacks is this: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/30155/75/

It doesn't have enough space for what I need (only 4 bays) but if were expandable or had 8 bays, I would get it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140072\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Infrant ReadyNAS kicks that thing to the curb ;-)

I have one, and it's awesome.

But it only has 4 bays, which means that today, you can only get about 2.8 TB of storage on it (with 4 x 1 TB drives in RAID 5).

kaelaria · « **Reply #16 on:** September 17, 2007, 10:57:03 pm »

Actually, it's quite a bit slower, but in fairness it is a year old: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/24945/75/1/7/

Fred Ragland · « **Reply #17 on:** September 18, 2007, 07:42:10 am »

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...It doesn't have enough space for what I need...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140072\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What do you need, how could you do it and what is the cost?

Thanks.

Fred

kaelaria · « **Reply #18 on:** September 18, 2007, 08:32:59 am »

With a RAID 5 or 10 array I need at least 8TB, and need something expandible - lots of bays. When I move my collection from DVD to HDDVD and Blu-Ray, my needs will increase even further.

Right now the cost is either $35k turn-key, or DIY about $5000 - too much in either case right now, it's not that important. I'll live with a few thousand DVDs on the shelves.

Kevin W Smith · « **Reply #19 on:** September 18, 2007, 12:46:47 pm »

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It's MAJOR drawback for any use except backup, is the excrusiatingly slow transfer speed of USB2.

Not entirely true, it depends on the device. A properly implemented USB2 interface - on both sides of the cord - is on par with FW400. For data transfer, realtime transfer speeds can stutter because of OS interrupts but that's only important if you're working with something audio or video. For backup, it's fine.

Firewire 800 is certainly better for striped RAID work drive setups, but eSATA and Fiber Channel is even better, at least if you're running faster than 7K hard drives.

But all that's out of my price range, so I just back up to duplicate external drives. One stays at the studio and the other goes home with me. When the drives gets full I simply print a folder list, put them away, and buy two more.

Anything recent or other things I want quick access to stays on my work drive, but the bulk of my archive resides on the shelf. A bit inconvenient if I want something from it, but very large storage arrays where my life's digital work is always available, are far too expensive for me right now.

The duplicated external drive solution is inexpensive, safe and effective, and plenty fast enough for backup and archiving. The only time I'm vulnerable is if my work drives suddenly fails before I've backed it up, but then RAID setups have their own share of drawbacks, like if you accidentally delete a file it also gets deleted on it's mirror.

FWIW, I always bring an external drive with me on a location shoot if there's any chance that I'll exceed the capacity of my flash cards. Of course I backup to my laptop every time a card is full, but I don't erase the CF card until it's data is in two other places.

Author Topic: Drobo Data Storage (Read 24289 times)

DarkPenguin