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Author Topic: Plexiglas Liminate ?  (Read 11750 times)

Dave Carter

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Plexiglas Liminate ?
« on: August 25, 2007, 10:03:28 am »

In July of this year I saw a great inkjet photo show at the Smithsonian Natural History museum in Washington DC.  The pictures were quite large (about 30" x 40") and appeared to be mounted between two pieces of clear plexiglas.  The front piece of plexiglas was about 1/8" thick and the back piece was about 1/16"thick.

All the edges were polished.  The print came right to the edge (you could feel it with your fingernail).  But, upon close inspection, there was no indication of glue anywhere on the edge or face of the print.

Does anyone have any idea how it could be done?  Is there some very clear adhesive product?  I have tried to ask the museum, but have had no luck yet.
Thanks, Dave
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framah

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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2007, 11:21:35 am »

Check out this website.  

http://plexiphoto.com/

The process you are seeing is called Diasec. Pretty cool look!

You can also Google Diasec to find out who does it.
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Dave Carter

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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2007, 12:06:21 pm »

Yes, that looks like it might be the process.
I will read the links that turned up on Google also.
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

AND, YES, it really gives a very nice look.

I'm going to try it.
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kers

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« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2007, 03:57:19 pm »

Quote
Yes, that looks like it might be the process.
I will read the links that turned up on Google also.
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

AND, YES, it really gives a very nice look.

I'm going to try it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135451\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I  am just  checking out on this method and Inkjets often give problems, where lamda prints do not.
I am using a z3100 and the results so far are:

use gloss enhancer on the complete surface in case of glossy/semigloss papers
use hahnemuhle smooth fine art or some of the other cotton based mat papers

In all case check it out with a sample- also because the picture will look different when behind the plexiglass

good luck!

kers
« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 04:00:52 pm by kers »
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SeanPuckett

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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2007, 03:59:11 pm »

Drytac has a pressure mount transparent adhesive called "Facemount" which works with inkjet prints.  I might have a go with this sometime, but find plexi pretty annoying due to its static/dust attractant properties.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 04:02:20 pm by SeanPuckett »
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AWeil

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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2007, 05:44:09 pm »

Dave, where are you located - or better : do you read German? Here is a company that has a lot of experience with Diasec in the art sector, if not the most experience with this type of work.

http://www.grieger-online.de/

The acrylic glass used in this process does not show problems with static and/or dust. I have seen so many examples in galleries and museums - they would not use it, if that were an issue. The only serious problem is scratching. Remember: The images are permanently fused with a backing and an acrylic front panel, acrylic on both sides or with a sheet of aluminum in the back and acrylic in front (called 'Alubond' in the industry). Acrylic is way more sensitive to handling than real glass. If the front surface is scratched, you have to start from scratch - with a new print.
On the other hand, this display method has several advantages: First the look (you have seen it) - it adds depth and the images look as if they are illuminated from within and second weight and breaking - just think of the very large prints framed with glass and try to move them around, ship them, find wall fixtures.....

Best,
Angela
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Dave Carter

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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2007, 11:05:26 am »

Kers -
Thanks for the paper info.  I will probably plan on trying several papers printed with a color test panel to see the affect of laminating.  (Although, I don't think it will matter with Drytac's film).

Sean -
Drytac's UV optically clear nounting adhesive looks like it might do the job.  I have asked them for a sample or if someone near Hendersonville, NC might have less than roll quantities for sale.

Angela -
My German is not very good at all.  I know only enough to get around town over there.
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2007, 03:30:30 pm »

Anyone know of a shop near San Francisco that can provide this service?
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Colorwave

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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2007, 03:48:25 pm »

Quote
Anyone know of a shop near San Francisco that can provide this service?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
He doesn't do the Diasec process, but Chuck at Thurston Digital (http://thurston-sf.com) can do facemount adhesive on acrylic, to bond prints to the back side of acrylic with no bubbles or visible adhesive.  
Good luck,
Ron
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2007, 07:22:16 pm »

Quote
He doesn't do the Diasec process, but Chuck at Thurston Digital (http://thurston-sf.com) can do facemount adhesive on acrylic, to bond prints to the back side of acrylic with no bubbles or visible adhesive. 
Good luck,
Ron
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Ron - I'll check him out.
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juicy

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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2007, 06:33:46 am »

Hi!

Diasec is probably the most often used system for mounting large (over 4') fine-art prints in Europe these days and Grieger has been one of the best known companies producing Diasecs. The proces is not an easy one to perform, I've seen some prints with small airbubbles in them (rarely a real issue though and I have no info which company had made these particular prints).

Diasecs are mostly backed on aluminium but recently aluminium-composite-sandwich has become popular bacause of it's lighter weight and cheaper price. There are also alternative techniques using ultra-high gloss coatings/varnish instead of plexi.

Large prints are allways difficult to handle/ship no matter how you mount them. Because of their relative thinnes Diasecs and similar aluminium- or aluminium-composite- backed prints are vulnerable on the edges and corners during transportation. When crated properly, they are more resistant to shock than ordinary frames with glass.
They are also very heavy (at least from 5' or 1,5 meter wide and up).
 
The surface is easily scratched as noted in earlier posts and thus should be handled with cotton or similar gloves.

Cheers
J
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dkeyes

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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2007, 04:49:10 pm »

Dave,
One thing to keep in mind is that some of your images will get scratched. So you have to weigh the cost of redoing the print and mounting with the look you want. I've done several shows this way and stopped doing it because I couldn't afford to lose more prints and money. I'm not talking about careless art handlers but professional museum and galleries who handle fragile work all the time.
If you do go this route, get some plastic polish from a plastics dealer or hi-end frame shop. This will take out most fine scratches.
Good luck,
Doug
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Dave Carter

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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2007, 09:38:04 pm »

Yes, I can see where scratches and air bubbles can be a problem.  Thanks all for the advice.
Dave
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BarryS

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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2007, 10:50:25 pm »

I think the jury is still out on the archival quality of Diasec and other plexi-laminated photos.  The Diasec process using silicone as a bonding agent and if you've ever worked with silicone caulk or liquid silicone, you've smelled the acetic acid as it cures.  It's hard to say what effect that residual acid will have on the images.  They do look great though and if you want to be a contemporary art photographer, it seems like a requirement to print massive images, and use a massively expensive mounting system like Diasec.
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cbcbell

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« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2007, 08:55:50 am »

Two years ago, I travelled to Toronto to learn how to face-mount from the top technical people at Drytac, as I wanted to mount my own 24" wide inkjet prints from my HP 130nr printer. I bought the Drytac JM26 laminator ($1500, 26" wide capacity), and built the necessary input and output tables, laminating sleds, etc. In my own studio, I worked through the procedure for using Facemount UV (the Drytac double-sided, optically clear adhesive) and mounting on plexiglas (Acrylite), using an aluminum composite panel behind the print (Dibond).  Having more or less mastered the process, my advice is that you not do it yourself. The adhesive films, from Drytac, Seal, or other manufacturers, produces a very fine pattern of small areas that don't completely bond, something that is called "silvering" in the industry. This isn't too objectionable if you don't look very closely, or the print values aren't too dark, but if you compare it against an image that has been mounted with Diasec, the difference is non-trivial. Because Diasec uses an adhesive that has a gel-like consistency, it completely fills the inescapable and microscopic gaps between plexi and print, and also encapsulates any dust particles, so the viewer is completely unaware of the mounting process. The problem with Diasec is that it is chemically incompatible with all inkjet prints, so the print has to be produced on a Lambda, Lightjet or equivalent. For all future commissions, my intention is to proof on my HP 130, then let Laumont Digital (New York), make the final prints and mount them. Laumont works with a number of the major New York photography galleries, and I have never seen work from them that was anything less than superb.
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kers

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« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2007, 09:52:24 am »

Quote
The problem with Diasec is that it is chemically incompatible with all inkjet prints, so the print has to be produced on a Lambda, Lightjet or equivalent.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137034\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hello Christopher,

from the local diasec supplier here in Holland I have learned that some inkjets do work with the diasec proces:

at least the fibre based papers seem tot work ( like Hahnemühle smooth fine art)
I am doing a test at this moment with some of the z3100 HP satin papers

kers
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Dave Carter

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« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2007, 09:56:30 am »

Christopher.
Thanks for the very complete comment.
I can see how "silvering" might occour with a full width roller.
However, do you have any materials left that I might try an approach using a short small diameter roller and working down the edge in very short sections by hand?
Second, did you sell your liminator?
Thanks again, Dave
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cbcbell

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« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2007, 10:59:20 am »

Hi Dave,

The pressure on the rollers is quite substantial to get a good bond, and you could never begin to match it by hand (I have also done Formica laminating in a kitchen renovation, and so have experience with the the small, hard rollers used for edges). Also, the process of sending the piece through the laminator such that you remove all air and don't trap dust requires that the rollers be as wide as the workpiece.

Yes, I do still have the laminator, and actually find it quite useful for mounting 24 x 36" prints on museum board for my portfolio, so mine's not for sale. However, I have seen them on ebay at considerably reduced cost, so you might look there.
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Dave Carter

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« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2007, 12:19:28 pm »

Thanks again.
I will not try the small roller approach.
And, yes, I am sure laminators show up on ebay, but if the process is not that great, why bother.
Dave
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