Topic: Digicam with RAW, IS, 6+ MPx, good ISO (Read 10785 times)

deelight · « **on:** May 22, 2007, 07:35:37 am »

Hello all!

Which non-dslr camera (pocket size) do you use or recommend that has the following features:

1. RAW, RAW, RAW
2. acceptable exposure delay
3. Image Stabilizer
4. few noise at higher ISO
5. good lens

I would like to have this features when not carrying around my Aptus or 5D. Of coures I do not expect to come near the quality with the digicam.

But still want to have a quite usable file for professional needs, if such picture/situation appears.

Do(es) there exist one or even few camera(s) like this at all??? Why the hell is noone interested in building such a cam?

Thanks in advance.

Best,

Clem

Dan Wells · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2007, 11:35:42 am »

The entire combination does not exist (and never has). Nobody wants to build it, primarily to avoid taking sales away from low-end DSLRs - it would also be somewhat technically difficult (due to the image quality limitations of small sensors - RAW is less useful on a small sensor with very constrained dynamic range, and you'll never escape noise on a small sensor. One approach would be to use a DSLR sensor and a restricted zoom range - there is a Sigma (the DP1) out there that does this, but has no zoom at all. A 5x zoom on a DSLR-size sensor forces a DSLR sized camera such as the Sony R1 of a few years ago, but a 3x zoom might be possible in something reasonably compact.

Here are some contenders missing one thing or another:

Not quite small enough (small SLRs)
Nikon D40x with small VR lens
Canon Rebel XTi with small IS lens
Pentax K100d (or K10d)(has image stabilization in body - note that Pentax loves small lenses)

No Image Stabilization, uses SLR-size sensor
Leica M8 (very expensive digital rangefinder)
Epson RD-1 (expensive digital rangefinder, discontinued)
Sigma DP1 (fixed 28 mm equivalent lens)

No Image Stabilzation, uses pocket camera size sensor
Canon G6 (discontinued, also somewhat noisy at high ISO)

No RAW
Canon G7
Nikon Coolpix P5000

Very noisy at high ISO, somewhat slow (especially in RAW)
Panasonic Lumix LX-2
Leica DLux 3 (twin of above Panasonic)

Your best compromise (assuming the M8 is too expensive) might well be either a little Rebel that shares lenses with your 5D (and a small, light Canon lens or two)or one of the small Pentax SLRs with built-in image stabilization (potentially with one of Pentax's "pancake" lenses that look like a body cap with glass in it). I know they're both still SLRs, but they're so far above the point and shoot competition that they're probably worth it. I've been looking for the same thing for years and haven't found it...

-Dan

Dan Wells · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2007, 11:52:45 am »

I just looked at Canon's lens lineup, and the smallest IS lens is the 17-85 EF-S, which still weighs a pound or so. This makes the Pentaxes with in-body stabilization very attractive... They have a couple of three ounce "pancake" lenses which really do look like body caps with glass in them - a 21 and a 40, plus the usual assortment of small, light zooms, all of which lack built-in IS, but get it from a stabilized body! Nikon has a lighter VR lens, but it's a 55-200, so you'd only get focal lengths from a portrait lens on up.

With a pancake lens on a Pentax body, you could come in as light as 22 ounces, in something that isn't much bulkier than a big point and shoot (and is less bulky than some superzoom point and shoots).

-Dan

deelight · « **Reply #3 on:** May 23, 2007, 04:05:18 am »

Quote

The entire combination does not exist (and never has). [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119002\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dan,

thanks for your opinion. I was afraid that I would get an answer like the above... After looking out for 2 years now for a compact camera without success I am not surprised.

The G6 was an option, but I thought there would be a newer model within the next months (fram any company) that beats it.

SLR is no option, I have 5D and do not want to carry around all the stuff (even if smaller Dslrs are much lighter).

I guess I will have a closer look at the Sigma and the M8.

Best regards,

Clem

Idefix · « **Reply #4 on:** May 23, 2007, 05:29:22 am »

I recommend K100D. Image Stabilization + low price + low noise.
Here is some noise sample links: http://highiso.net/pentax/pentax-k100d.html

BernardLanguillier · « **Reply #5 on:** May 23, 2007, 07:44:42 am »

You might want to consider the Ricoh GX100. It is obviously not that great at medium/high ISO, but no other compact is besides the Fuji line.

Regards,
Bernard

Dan Wells · « **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2007, 12:46:53 pm »

Note that the little Pentax K100D with a pancake prime is actually lighter than the M8 with a lens. The DP1 IS a great deal lighter (half the weight). Of course the M8 has a huge advantage in image quality and build quality (the K100D is a $450 consumer SLR, and the M8 is a $5000 Leica), and there are more than three lenses available - Pentax has 21, 40 and 70 mm pancake lenses that are, if anything, smaller than Leica rangefinder lenses, but anything else will be quite a bit bigger. For compactness, there are always the (frightfully expensive) Leica Tri-Elmar lenses for the M8 - 3 focal lengths in one fairly small lens.
In the days before autofocus, there were VERY small zoom lenses for various SLRs, some of which were optically quite good. Their secret was that they had shorter zoom ranges - 35-70 was common, instead of today's 28-105. Nikon actually still makes (or at least B+H still lists) a 35-70 f3.3-4.5 manual focus lens that is less than 2.5 inches long - of course its compactness advantage is destroyed because it won't meter on anything less than a D200, and it won't even focus on a D40 or D40x.
That lens is exactly the same size as the 28-35-50 Tri-Elmar, and I wouldn't even be surprised if the optical designs are somewhat similar (of course the Leica will be much better made, with superior glass). The present cheapie 18-55 f3.5-5.6 is not the same class of lens (the 18-70 f 3.5-4.5 is, but it's nearly twice the size and weight). Even the 18-55 is substantially larger than the old 35-70 (although similar in weight). Why can't Nikon bring that lens back in an AF-S VR version - perhaps as a 24-50, so the focal lengths are a better fit for digital sensors?
Better yet, build a non-SLR camera with the 24-50, or even an 18-50 built in - well under a pound, D40x sensor, nice optics, RAW and VR. That lens would have a zoom range from somewhat wide to a portrait lens - if you want telephoto, carry your SLR... I bet Nikon would sell quite a few of those cameras for $700-$900 to owners of D200s, 5Ds, 1D series cameras and D2xs, looking for something to carry when they don't want to bring the big cameras.

-Dan

dkusner · « **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2007, 04:12:48 pm »

Quote

Very noisy at high ISO, somewhat slow (especially in RAW)
Panasonic Lumix LX-2
Leica DLux 3 (twin of above Panasonic)

This is an accurate description. I've been waiting for the dream digicam for several years also, to pair with my Canon DSLRs, but got tired of waiting and just got an LX2 a few days ago. I haven't taken any serious shots with it yet, just test shots to see what it is capable of.

I shoot only in RAW, and write times are very slow in RAW mode, and forget about exposure bracketing. Image quality at ISO 100 is actually quite nice, though not up to 5D/L-glass standards. The main issue I've seen is a loss of detail in the deep shadows, though this isn't as bad as I had feared (but it can be bad enough that many have speculated that some NR is being applied even to RAW images -- I'm not totally convinced, but haven't ruled it out either). I haven't even bothered with anything over ISO100, this is purely a plentiful-light camera for me in times when I don't feel like carrying a backpack full of gear.

The high points of this camera are the 16:9 widescreen mode, good detail resolution, IS, great lens, and extremely small size. In fact, this camera has convinced me that I really do want a pocket-sized camera that is capable of taking very good images under ideal conditions. I'm willing to live with its limitations for the sake of the size/weight. I still want the dream digicam too, though, even if it's a brick by comparison, in addition to the DSLRs for serious shooting and hopefully a rangefinder at some point (couldn't convince myself to get the M8, just a few too many issues).

deelight · « **Reply #8 on:** May 24, 2007, 04:41:21 am »

Thanks, guys, for your impressions so far!

What happened to the Sigma DP1? Anybody heard when it will be available, how much will it cost? Read somewhere else that it should have been available in Jan. 2007 (Europe)? Though it has no zoom lens it seems to be quite good in the other specs. What do you think?

Best,
Clem

dkusner · « **Reply #9 on:** May 24, 2007, 11:31:04 am »

Quote

Thanks, guys, for your impressions so far!

What happened to the Sigma DP1? Anybody heard when it will be available, how much will it cost? Read somewhere else that it should have been available in Jan. 2007 (Europe)? Though it has no zoom lens it seems to be quite good in the other specs. What do you think?

Best,
Clem
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119331\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The latest rumors seem to center on "early summer". There isn't much information available from Sigma, but the development of this camera clearly hit some snags and has gone on much longer than anticipated. The Sigma forum over at DPReview has regular "what's up with the DP1" threads.

HiltonP · « **Reply #10 on:** May 24, 2007, 12:19:46 pm »

The compact nature of a Pentax body + pancake lens combo is clearly shown in this photo . . .

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/5406/...seBigLittle.jpg

(with thanks to The Online Photographer)

One really cannot ask for anything more, all the benefits of a DSLR (plus a couple to really good new ones thanks to Pentax's innovative approach), in less volume than a larger digicam.

Dan Wells · « **Reply #11 on:** May 28, 2007, 12:29:47 pm »

It would be interesting to see that same picture with a G7, an M8 and some superzoom digicam added, to get a feel for how the sizes of various options mentioned here compare (as well as how close in size large digicams actually are to small SLRs).

-Dan

Quote

The compact nature of a Pentax body + pancake lens combo is clearly shown in this photo . . .

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/5406/...seBigLittle.jpg

(with thanks to The Online Photographer)

One really cannot ask for anything more, all the benefits of a DSLR (plus a couple to really good new ones thanks to Pentax's innovative approach), in less volume than a larger digicam.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119404\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

icebird · « **Reply #12 on:** June 08, 2007, 09:06:08 pm »

I still have and still love my superzoom digicam (Minolta A2), for any outdoor activities where photography is not the primary purpose.

And to be honest, if I would loose or break it, I wouldn't know neither, where to go next.

I do like the low-size and low-weight approach of Pentax with their K100d, which is probably on par with A2 and the like in that respect.

However, the appealing incentive with non-DSLRs is (and will ever be) the non-requirement of lens exchange, sensor cleaning, then the carrying convenience, and accessability. For those reasons, I wouldn't want to fiddle around with mounting and maintaining DSLR gear, be it even whatever small-ish one, while I'm kayaking, for example. Or on other occations, I wouldn't like anything which is less convenient and bulky than a pouch attached to my belt.

I guess, Pentax (or someone else) to develop a superzoom for the K100d, may be not an option really, as I understood that having a small imaging target, i.e. a truly small sensor, would be a requirement for designing superzooms with still good imaging properties from the short to the long end.

Bottomline: If I had to replace my bridge/superzoom camera, I would probably get myself such kind again (and be it 2nd hand from ebay), rather than switching to the K100d for now.

I guess, the K100d is not aimed to be the secondary "spare time" gear for professionals, but more as the sole DSLR for ambitioned amateur / "prosumer" photographers?

Hen

TurnerJon · « **Reply #13 on:** June 11, 2007, 12:57:44 am »

Take a look at the Olympus sp550.

The View · « **Reply #14 on:** June 11, 2007, 02:52:23 am »

Leica d-lux 3. Great colors. Full control over everything. Beautiful. RAW.

NikosR · « **Reply #15 on:** June 11, 2007, 05:41:03 am »

Perhaps people would be interested to read the below, by Thom Hogan:

http://www.bythom.com/compact.htm

as well as 'Building the perfect point-and-shoot' from May 18 2007, in Mike Johnston's old blog http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/...01_archive.html

icebird · « **Reply #16 on:** June 12, 2007, 10:37:17 am »

Quote

Leica d-lux 3. Great colors. Full control over everything. Beautiful. RAW.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122155\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I like it. Well almost, but it's pointing into the right direction.

It's a pity though that there's no lens thread (for polarisers, or 3rd party teleconverters, given the still limited zoom range. Don't know, why they have "forgotten" it - wouldn't the lens diameter have been big enough?

Furthermore, they should consider extending the tele zoom range. If the lens will become bigger, I wouldn't mind at all.

From my first summer vacation with the A2, I crafted a usage diagram just for fun (with a help of an EXIF extractor tool and Excel) showing what focal lenghts I have been using in daily reality. The range from 112 to 200 mm (which is missing from the LX2) is not huge, but not that small neither (20%).

netdog · « **Reply #17 on:** July 19, 2007, 12:26:33 pm »

Quote

Leica d-lux 3. Great colors. Full control over everything. Beautiful. RAW.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122155\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

+1 for the Leica.

Do be aware that if you shoot at ISO 400 or higher, you will have noise issues. Of course, I always manage to get my images shot at ISO 100 or 200. Under such conditions, it is a superb camera with the best lens I know of for a point and shoot.

If you want to save some dosh, and will only shoot RAW, the twin camera, the Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2 is worth considering. Downsides are only its in-camera JPG processing, shorter warranty, looks (IMO), and the relatively unimportant difference in software package (Elements is bundled with the Leica).

Author Topic: Digicam with RAW, IS, 6+ MPx, good ISO (Read 10785 times)