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Author Topic: Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process  (Read 99268 times)

Ethan Schoonover

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #140 on: February 12, 2007, 02:05:54 pm »

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Yes, Ethan!

This first goal has been reached, concerning myself and Sinar: we have taken good notice of your points and what seems important in a purchase decision process.

Thanks again for that!
Thierry
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Thanks for that Thierry, and many thanks also for addressing the other issues with the local folks in such a hands on manner. I've had a much better follow up from the local Sinar guy here.

Ethan
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Khun_K

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« Reply #141 on: February 14, 2007, 04:07:42 am »

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hi Rainer,

i find it fantastic as well. Especially, knowing you and your work for quite a time, I could not understand these attacks.

Great work!

And safe journey tomorrow, wherever you go.

Thierry
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This would be a question for the Sinar expert. As Hy6 is coming out and I believe it will in matter of time. I am currently using P45 with Contax 645 and Alpa SWA12 with satisfied results. However, since Contax is a system that effective, while not quite alive, but I guess I will be OK with 2 extra body available to take place.  While avoiding a system that no longer evolve, I recently also invested a H3D39 system and 4 lenses so may be when the Hy6 come out, may be I can decide to switch from Contax to Hy6. Anyway, the back on H3D39 can also work on other medium/large format platform and powered by the Hasselblad's image bank, is it making the H3D39 back useful on the coming Hy6 with Hasselblad's i-adaptor? Just as Leaf and Sinar back will be or will not??
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thsinar

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #142 on: February 14, 2007, 04:23:18 am »

hi Khun K,

there is no adapter for the Hasselblad backs, as much as there is no adapter for Phase One backs to be used on the Hy6.

Thanks, and where are you in Bangkok?

Thierry

Quote
This would be a question for the Sinar expert. As Hy6 is coming out and I believe it will in matter of time. is it making the H3D39 back useful on the coming Hy6 with Hasselblad's i-adaptor? Just as Leaf and Sinar back will be or will not??
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Khun_K

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« Reply #143 on: February 14, 2007, 04:39:50 am »

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hi Khun K,

there is no adapter for the Hasselblad backs, as much as there is no adapter for Phase One backs to be used on the Hy6.

Thanks, and where are you in Bangkok?

Thierry
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I live in Thonglor area, my design studio nearby the intersection of Onnut and Srinakarin road. As it is said, my work is primary industrial design although we do provide commercial/industrial photography services. I have used P25 and then P45 for over 3 years, and the new H3D39 is coming in 1-2 weeks.
I was using 6008 for 6X6 and Contax 645 for 6X4.5 when I was still using film.
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rainer_v

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #144 on: February 14, 2007, 06:01:32 am »

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I live in Thonglor area, my design studio nearby the intersection of Onnut and Srinakarin road. As it is said, my work is primary industrial design although we do provide commercial/industrial photography services. I have used P25 and then P45 for over 3 years, and the new H3D39 is coming in 1-2 weeks.
I was using 6008 for 6X6 and Contax 645 for 6X4.5 when I was still using film.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100815\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
whats your real name or do you want to hold it secret? was shooting 2005+6  six months at suvarnabhumi airport and lived closed to your studio, as well as thierry.....
« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 06:01:49 am by rehnniar »
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rainer viertlböck
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Khun_K

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« Reply #145 on: February 15, 2007, 01:51:59 am »

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whats your real name or do you want to hold it secret? was shooting 2005+6  six months at suvarnabhumi airport and lived closed to your studio, as well as thierry.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100823\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is no secret, my name as printed on my passport is Kaisern but everyone call me Khun K and that's why.  Name is just something referring to a person but I have no problem to be called in real name, just that in Thailand almost everyone carries a nickname and often use in public.  I heard from Thierry that you are coming and may be it won't be a bad idea to have a cup of coffee together. Thierry is may be just 10 minutes from my studio, but to remind you, it is not a photo studio, it is more a design studio.
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rainer_v

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #146 on: February 15, 2007, 02:33:02 am »

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There is no secret, my name as printed on my passport is Kaisern but everyone call me Khun K and that's why.  Name is just something referring to a person but I have no problem to be called in real name, just that in Thailand almost everyone carries a nickname and often use in public.  I heard from Thierry that you are coming and may be it won't be a bad idea to have a cup of coffee together. Thierry is may be just 10 minutes from my studio, but to remind you, it is not a photo studio, it is more a design studio.
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great idea. ... we will do so.
i did ( and do ) a lot of design photography for " DIE NEUE SAMMLUNG ", one of the worldest most important and bggest design collections.

[a href=\"http://www.tangential.de/tangential-de/_html-seiten/pages-03_die-neue-sammlung/index.htm]http://www.tangential.de/tangential-de/_ht...mlung/index.htm[/url]
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 04:55:48 am by rehnniar »
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rainer viertlböck
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Robin Casady

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #147 on: February 16, 2007, 11:24:07 am »

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I am currently using P45 with Contax 645 and Alpa SWA12 with satisfied results.
...
While avoiding a system that no longer evolve, I recently also invested a H3D39 system and 4 lenses ...
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When you've had a chance to use the H3D39, I'd be very interested to hear what you think of it compared to the P45.

Thanks,
Robin Casady
[a href=\"http://www.robincasady.com]http://www.robincasady.com[/url]
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Khun_K

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« Reply #148 on: February 17, 2007, 11:58:49 pm »

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When you've had a chance to use the H3D39, I'd be very interested to hear what you think of it compared to the P45.

Thanks,
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com
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You can count on it but I suspect how usefult the test will be since the camera system is different, with one being Contax with Contax lenses and some Hasselblad V lenses and one with H body+H lenses, and different raw converter as well. I will run some test and may be just to give some personal opinion.
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Robin Casady

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #149 on: February 18, 2007, 03:10:09 am »

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You can count on it but I suspect how usefult the test will be since the camera system is different, with one being Contax with Contax lenses and some Hasselblad V lenses and one with H body+H lenses, and different raw converter as well. I will run some test and may be just to give some personal opinion.
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Personal experience is what I'd like to hear. Shooting experience, ergonomics, how well the system functions, and workflow issues interest me as well as results. What and how you shoot would be an important aspect as well.

Thanks,
Robin Casady
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Khun_K

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« Reply #150 on: March 01, 2007, 02:21:27 am »

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Personal experience is what I'd like to hear. Shooting experience, ergonomics, how well the system functions, and workflow issues interest me as well as results. What and how you shoot would be an important aspect as well.

Thanks,
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101485\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ok, I just took delivery yesterday of my H3D39 along HCD 28/4, 35/3.5, 50-110/3.5-4.5, 100/2.2 and 120/4, I eventually bought one more lens than I originally ordered. I can only do best to compare it against my beloved (and still beloved Contax 645) and the 500 series and 205TCC.

The screen & View finder - without scientific measurement, the H3D probably has bighter viewfinder than the Contax, of the same apaerture. Just a little, so for example, the 100/2.2 looks as bright as 80/2 on the scren. The rubber armor on H3D viewfinder is a generation superior than the Contax 645, and quite comfortable to use. It is nice to look thru the viewfinder wihtout the usual darkened masking. I remembered PME5 on the 205TCC is very bright as well, but the memory a few years should not count. As I am more used to the layout of the Contax 645, the information on H3D view finder although quite clearly layout, it does not look better to be.

Grip - The H3D grip feel solid but wide on one side, thin on the other, I would say the Contax 645 has superior grip and the camera just felt much more balanced on your hand. Especially the H system lenses are in general larger and heavier than the Contax, the tradition design excellence on Contax camera holds up well against the H system. The Contax also have the power grip but that something it is too big, especially when I have to attach a Bron-color ring flash, that I will always like to remove the power grip. Without it, Contax is better, with it, I consider it a personal preference option, not sure if H will have one later or not. I suspect they will.

The ovrall control - Without question, Contax is way superior than the H for me. I like to be able to adjust the aperture ring, although Contax does not have 1/2 or 1/3 click, I am actually able to just adjust the aperture ring between the full stop setting and able to set the aperture in 1/2 or 1/3 stop by look thru the view finder. This is useful when you are reaching the defraction limit of a lens but want to get as much as DOF then it is useful in such way. H is electronically controlled so you can set it thru dials/wheels, something not my preference. The tradtion dial and mechanical setting is more useful for me. Anyone with reasonable knowledge in photogpraphy can take control of Contax 645 in very short time, I suppose they will take a much longer time on H to figure it out. But since H is designed for professionals, I think eventually everyone can master the control eventually.  

The integration of back and camera - there is a mixed feeling on this. On contax 645, since I have been using the system for close to 10 years and many years with DB, I do not think it is that necessary to integrate them together in such way H3D does. I am absolutely happy the way Contax and P45 works, all the essential photographic setting thru camera and all the image setting exclusively thru the back, why not!  With H3D39, sometime you take a pause to think either the seeting you are looking for to be on the back, or on the camera. The only advantage here is really you do not have to power up the camera and back separately.  The integration for system communication today can be done by electronic contacts, I don't see Contax is inferior in this regard. Especially when the battery continue to improve everyday, having separate battery in camera or DB is not mattered to me.

The lenses and AF - I have always asked, if one can use Leica M to focus quickly, they can do that on medium format, especailly for the camera such as Contax 645. So the AF focusing speed on Contax never bother me, and the AF bottom on the grip just make operating the camera a second nature, perfect. The damping of manual focus ring on both system is equal but I like the way Contax lens offers, you can immediately adjust the aperture value while continue to shoot, rather than a finer turning the wheels.  Contax just offers more intuitive operation than H. AF on H is faster and does not hunt as much, but it is also noisier. AF speed is not that important to me. May be one day my eye gets worse this would be mattered, I hope this won;t happen too soon.

Conclusion - H does not make Contax 645 obsolete. With Contax 645 and P45, somehow you are doing only what is essential for getting the picture needed. No second guess. And the system works beautifully, AF with reasonably good speed, and quieter. Just smoothly!  H is more complicated. Eventually you will be abel to control the camera flawlessly, with a learning curve, and more dial and wheels. I think Contax 645 has more elegant approach to the design of the system, not making the system overally complicate, but still capable of doing everything you need - except - 1/125 sync speed is slow in certain regard, and that's one major reason I end up added H3D39 to my system.  The other reason is the 28mm HCD lens and its claimed DAC function, which if it works out as claimed, will give a nice alternative to my Alpa system yet able to focus closely wiht high precision and able to view the DOF. While the my Contax system can go all the way to 35mm (and to 30mm with MAM-1 adapter and Hasselblad CF 30mm fisheye), it does not offer 28mm, which sometimes I need. I do not intend to add the tele lens for H because my Contax lenses can take care of that.  

I hope later on I can give you more personal test information for image quality, after all, all the above comparison is subjective, sometimes not fair to compare a system of 10 years old and 1 day old.  
On the aesthetic issue, as I am an industrial designer that could not resist myself to comment, that Contax 645 has a smart, sophisticate and comtemporary look, while H3D39 looks like a serious and capable machine. Contax looked to me a design made by photographer, and H design made by an typical industrial designer/engineer.
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TorbenEskerod

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #151 on: March 01, 2007, 03:09:42 am »

xx
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 07:08:16 am by TorbenEskerod »
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Khun_K

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« Reply #152 on: March 01, 2007, 04:33:23 am »

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Dear Khun_K

You are putting it right on the spot this is also my experience with the two systems.

The mirror slap is a big issue for me - how do you compare the two (I have my opinion but would like to hear yours).

I don’t think you will see much difference in lens quality; both systems are excellent, I think it comes down to personal taste (bokeh etc.).

I am sure you will like the lens correction software from Flexcolor it actually works.

Best

Torben
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I would say I prefer the mirror slap on Contax is softer than on H3D. It did not bother me much though. I have no problem getting shape picture handheld at low speed from Contax and suppose it is OK with H3D, I shall be able to confirm it once I run more tests.
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TorbenEskerod

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« Reply #153 on: March 01, 2007, 04:40:41 am »

xx
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 07:08:29 am by TorbenEskerod »
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pss

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« Reply #154 on: March 01, 2007, 01:09:14 pm »

i can share your experience with the H system....
which is why i have such a hard time with it...how can the latest, most expensive, supposedly most advanced camera system fail and compare unfavorably to much older and cheaper systems?
this is exactly why i am (and many people) so excited about the Hy6....a logical step up from an already very good camera (the 6008).....
there is no reason to re-invent the wheel...just make some things better, faster, smarter, lighter...not heavier, less ergonomic, more complicated and put in the worst mirror slap since the pentax 67.....
now if some one can figure out how to put a multispot AF system available in every sub 1000$ camera into a 10000 system, we might actually get useable MF AF.....
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James Russell

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #155 on: March 01, 2007, 02:38:09 pm »

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i can share your experience with the H system....
which is why i have such a hard time with it...how can the latest, most expensive, supposedly most advanced camera system fail and compare unfavorably to much older and cheaper systems?
this is exactly why i am (and many people) so excited about the Hy6....a logical step up from an already very good camera (the 6008).....
there is no reason to re-invent the wheel...just make some things better, faster, smarter, lighter...not heavier, less ergonomic, more complicated and put in the worst mirror slap since the pentax 67.....
now if some one can figure out how to put a multispot AF system available in every sub 1000$ camera into a 10000 system, we might actually get useable MF AF.....
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Personally, I can't get that excited about the HY6.  For one it's not on the shelf to hold or even shoot, but I think all of these propreitary systems run the risk of killing off medium format.

I know all the makers are looking for an advantage and trying to find a way to move people to their digital backs, as the digital back is where the money is, but once you limit us to all in ones especially with lens options, the lure of medium format gets even more expensive, more complicated and quite frankly less appealing.

If it's true and all the profit is in the digital portion of the platform then make a better back rather than trying to use the camera as a lure, or a hammer to move us to a certain system.

Give us open non proprietary file formats, GOOD/large lcds, easy tethering, fast processing, open image formats and reliable, let me repeat this reliable steady tethering and processing software along with glitch free use.

My first digitial back went in for repair three times and replacement once.  For $30,000 it should be more reliable than a $3,995 Canon.

Now my second digital back, the P-30 has been error free and is as easy to use as the Canons,
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/recent_miami/]http://www.russellrutherford.com/recent_miami/[/url]
except for the lcd and it is a step in the right direction, though it took a long time for Phase to come out with a back this easy to use with great color.

I hope all the manufacturer's survive, but I don't have high hopes that limitiing us to one camera one back business models will be a success.

JR
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pss

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #156 on: March 01, 2007, 04:27:41 pm »

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Personally, I can't get that excited about the HY6.  For one it's not on the shelf to hold or even shoot, but I think all of these propreitary systems run the risk of killing off medium format.

I know all the makers are looking for an advantage and trying to find a way to move people to their digital backs, as the digital back is where the money is, but once you limit us to all in ones especially with lens options, the lure of medium format gets even more expensive, more complicated and quite frankly less appealing.

If it's true and all the profit is in the digital portion of the platform then make a better back rather than trying to use the camera as a lure, or a hammer to move us to a certain system.

Give us open non proprietary file formats, GOOD/large lcds, easy tethering, fast processing, open image formats and reliable, let me repeat this reliable steady tethering and processing software along with glitch free use.

My first digitial back went in for repair three times and replacement once.  For $30,000 it should be more reliable than a $3,995 Canon.

Now my second digital back, the P-30 has been error free and is as easy to use as the Canons,
http://www.russellrutherford.com/recent_miami/
except for the lcd and it is a step in the right direction, though it took a long time for Phase to come out with a back this easy to use with great color.

I hope all the manufacturer's survive, but I don't have high hopes that limitiing us to one camera one back business models will be a success.

JR
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the reason why i get excited about the Hy6 are schneider lenses....and that my experiences with the 6008 have been very good....BUT if i can't use my P30 on it i simply won't buy into the system....
i agree 100% with james, the most important thing is easy error free WORKING hardware and software that delivers great color and files.....the P30 is the best thing in that regard out there and the most flexible.....
with the upgrade to the P+ the screen issue might even get somehow resolved....but i am not really counting on that....
i find it interesting how many people use "obsolete" systems like hassV, contax or even mamiya with these DMF backs....and the only "new" system has some shortcoming of the old systems and even some new ones.....the closed system thing is pure desperation IMO.....
just like with film: i would have changed cameras to keep shooting with the film stock i wanted....simple as that....so why would i now let myself get forced into a back? because of the shiny new camera? sorry, won't happen....

here we are bitching about phase's screen for the 1000th time, but how about fixing what is "wrong" with MF? at least the Hy6 is working towards a new mirror construction to dampen the bounce....we will see how it works, i will probably be better then the 6008, which was pretty good for a 6x6 mirror.....
again: multi zone AF? is it really that hard?

still i am excited about the evolution of the 6008, i am still positive about someday using my P30 on it....
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doncody

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« Reply #157 on: March 01, 2007, 05:56:04 pm »

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the reason why i get excited about the Hy6 are schneider lenses....and that my experiences with the 6008 have been very good....BUT if i can't use my P30 on it i simply won't buy into the system....
i agree 100% with james, the most important thing is easy error free WORKING hardware and software that delivers great color and files.....the P30 is the best thing in that regard out there and the most flexible.....
with the upgrade to the P+ the screen issue might even get somehow resolved....but i am not really counting on that....
i find it interesting how many people use "obsolete" systems like hassV, contax or even mamiya with these DMF backs....and the only "new" system has some shortcoming of the old systems and even some new ones.....the closed system thing is pure desperation IMO.....
just like with film: i would have changed cameras to keep shooting with the film stock i wanted....simple as that....so why would i now let myself get forced into a back? because of the shiny new camera? sorry, won't happen....

here we are bitching about phase's screen for the 1000th time, but how about fixing what is "wrong" with MF? at least the Hy6 is working towards a new mirror construction to dampen the bounce....we will see how it works, i will probably be better then the 6008, which was pretty good for a 6x6 mirror.....
again: multi zone AF? is it really that hard?

still i am excited about the evolution of the 6008, i am still positive about someday using my P30 on it....
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Paul,  I'm also a Rollei fan having had a 6001 several years ago.  I have been looking at the 6008AF Bundle with a P20 back.  Will the 6008 not accept the P30?
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pss

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« Reply #158 on: March 01, 2007, 06:09:21 pm »

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Paul,  I'm also a Rollei fan having had a 6001 several years ago.  I have been looking at the 6008AF Bundle with a P20 back.  Will the 6008 not accept the P30?
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i used to have the rollei P20 bundle....great, great package, wonderful....but unfortunately the P30 does not work with it....the phase backs are just a touch too wide to be retateable on the 6008....so no P30 on the 6008....that is why i am on mamiya (645, RZ) right now.....i am sure that i will get a chance to put the P30 on a Hy6 one day....until then i am happy with the mamiya set-up.....now that i have the RZ with 1/400 and the P30 rotating, i am actually very happy....
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #159 on: March 01, 2007, 06:10:44 pm »

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Will the 6008 not accept the P30?
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Phase One decided not to support the Rollei 6000 mount. The one exception is the P20 back which was sold by Rollei in a 6000 mount.

Sinar and Imacon backs will work on the Rollei.
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