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Author Topic: Reviewer Integrity  (Read 6791 times)

Boghb

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« on: November 12, 2006, 04:30:43 pm »

I think Michael's admission that he agreed with Leica to eliminate comments about the M8's defects deserves its own thread.  It is explosive!

A manufacturer such as Leica may have a duty to disclose known defects about a product.  If the manufacturer intentionally witholds that information it can be liable for fraud.  In the US, this could be in the context of a class action, where a single customer can sue on behalf of thousands of similarly situated persons.

More importantly for Michal, a person who conspires to or aids and abets a fraud can also be liable jointly with the principal defrauder.  Does agreeing to help the manufacturer keep the information out of the public domain qualify?

But even if no one bothers to take matters to court, what credibility is there left for Michael or Leica?
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dlashier

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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2006, 04:33:36 pm »

plonk ...
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Boghb

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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2006, 04:43:07 pm »

Quote
plonk ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks, but what do you mean?
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John Camp

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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2006, 05:37:57 pm »

Quote
Thanks, but what do you mean?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84830\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe you should read through "sandbagged" or "I am so disappointed." It's tedious, but may obviate the need for yet another thread.

JC
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Boghb

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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2006, 05:41:20 pm »

I did, and apologize for being redundant.
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Andy M

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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2006, 05:44:50 pm »

Quote
More importantly for Michal, a person who conspires to or aids and abets a fraud can also be liable jointly with the principal defrauder.  Does agreeing to help the manufacturer keep the information out of the public domain qualify?

But even if no one bothers to take matters to court, what credibility is there left for Michael or Leica?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84826\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Don't be so ridiculous!
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michael

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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2006, 05:51:23 pm »

This is getting tiresome. I'll try and explain one more time.

There was no attempt to hide anything from readers. I saw a few images among those that I shot that showed some problems. I tried to reproduce them, but not really understanding what I was seeing, I couldn't.

I wrote them up, regardless.

I then sent a copy of my review to Leica before publishing it requesting that they check it for factual errors. I do this with all product reviews, and have done so for the past 30 years. It's my SOP, and in fact a proceedure insisted on by many reputable magazines that i have written for over the years. And no, it isn't advertising motivated. It's to avoid making inadvertant mistakes. The concept is similar to peer review in academic circles, but since with a new product that no one else yet has, there are no peers available. So one turns to the only people that know the answers – the manufacturer. This isn't giving them any editorial control, just an opportunity for fact checking. To do otherwise could prove irresponsible.

In this instance Leica asked if I would hold off on mentioning a couple of problems that I saw because they claimed that they themselves wern't sure if these were single sample or systemic events. I agreed, and requested that they get back to me with their findings, because I sent them a file for them to examine.

I then didn't hear further and proceeded to publish the review without these examples. That was my mistake. I should have mentioned that I had seen some problems, wasn't sure what they were because I couldn't easily duplicate them, and that I was waiting to hear from Leica with their comments.

That's the story. I screwed up and was blind-sided by Leica, because it is now clear that they were indeed aware of these problems, because other reviewers of early production cameras were seeing them as well and reporting them to Leica, just as I did. Phil Askey for one.

As the saying goes – "No good deed goes unpunished". I did what I believed at the time was the responsible thing to do. I didn't understand the problem that i was seeing and so I asked Leica for their analysis. because I didn't know if it was a single sample problem or a larger issue. I therefore didn't believe that it was responsable to publish my findings without additional information.

Should I have held the entire review? I didn't think so then and still don't. Should I have mentioned that there were some things i was still investigating? Yes, I now see that and regret that I didn't. My bad.

But lighten up please. There is no grand conspiracy here. Just some screw ups by fallable people, both me and Leica. I've done my best to explain my role in this , and hopefully Leica will see fit to do similarly. They at least owe such an explanation to me if not also to others.

Michael
« Last Edit: November 12, 2006, 06:13:12 pm by michael »
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Andy M

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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2006, 05:56:46 pm »

Michael - I hope the above clears thing up for people

Do you mind me asking if what has happened over the last few days has resulted in you not wishing to purchase an M8 (or any other Leica)?
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michael

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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2006, 06:04:39 pm »

Not at all. I did in fact purchase an M8, and think it's one of the most amazing cameras I've yet owned.

The problems are real, and I'm now seeing them for what they are. No deal breakers though, at least for me.

Michael
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Boghb

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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2006, 06:08:23 pm »

Thank you, Michael
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jani

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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2006, 07:49:15 pm »

Quote
Thanks, but what do you mean?
"Plonk" is the sound of someone dropping into someone's "kill filter" on Usenet news.

It basically is a way of saying "what you've just written is so bad that I won't read any more of what you write", and which is how it must be taken on a web board that allows such filtering.
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Jan

vgogolak

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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2006, 08:19:34 pm »

I understand 'plonk' perfectly. It is a sound made at one of those arcade games, the one with the gophers. they pop up, you hit it with a hammer, and two more pop up in another place,

Same with threads that harp on the same subject.

"plonk"
"plonk"
"plonk"

I really must hand it to Michael. Not only doesn't he censor, he actually takes the time to respond.

but please,
No more 'PLONK"

 
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Boghb

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« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2006, 12:49:03 am »

On second thought, maybe there is more to say on the subject.

Michael's unbalanced Leica review was not isolated.  Michael has also extensively reviewed the P45.  He first ignored the product's main defect: lens cast.  When users challenged him on it, his comment was: "what problem?".

A pattern is emerging of manufacturers announcing the release of an important product long before the actual release.  The product is then hyped through a series of gushing reviews, which create a rush to place orders before anyone has had the chance to see the product.  This is a marketing strategy that works especially well in digital photography, because cosumers are often uninformed about technical issues and depend heavily on reviews.

I understand Michael's supporters who want to end this episode, but bullying people posting honest and polite comments is not the way to do it.  

In case the bullies have not noticed, in the brave new world of digital photography, it is the consumer who needs the protection, not the reviewers and manufacturers.  So, when a situation like this arises proving collusion between the manufacturers and journalists who are supposed to be independent, it is a good thing to discuss it.

I suggest to the bullies to click on another thread, and maybe rethink their eticket.
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Andy M

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« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2006, 05:22:16 am »

Quote
The product is then hyped through a series of gushing reviews, which create a rush to place orders before anyone has had the chance to see the product.

Well, shame on Michael for dragging the people down to the camera store, somehow extracting their money for them, and MAKING them purchase a camera they obviously don't want.

Sorry, but get over it. So wrapped up in cotton wool is today's society, that sometimes it appears we forget that we're adults who can cope for ourselves.

Nobody is forcing anybody to buy a P45/M8/..., and everybody knows that there's a significant chance that you're going to find faults with product if you're an early adopter - be it camera gear, computer gear, even cars.

You pays your money, you makes your choice...


Quote
I understand Michael's supporters who want to end this episode, but bullying people posting honest and polite comments is not the way to do it. 

In case the bullies have not noticed, in the brave new world of digital photography, it is the consumer who needs the protection, not the reviewers and manufacturers.

The only bullying here appears to be against Michael. The guy's made a mistake and people want to repeatedly jump on him about it.

If, in the past, you've taken a reviewers word as gospel and purchased solely on the back of that, then more fool you. If there's a positive to come out of the situation, perhaps it's that people will now learn to stand on their own two feet and make decisions for themselves.

If anything, it appears the consumer needs protecting from himself...
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Boghb

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« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2006, 06:04:48 am »

I agree with your suggestion: consumers should not place complete faith on reviews.  I think this discussion takes us in that direction, and so it is positive.

As for Michael, I do not mean to ascribe evil motive at all.  My initial post was a reference to potential legal pitfalls in this kind of situation.

He has been extremely open on this issue, and for that he should be applauded.  I think given his apparent sincerity and forthrightness here, he may actually end up coming out of this looking sheepish and innocent.  That is good, because he has moved the ball forward on this subject.

As for the P45, at the end of the day, I actually like it alot!  But that's another topic.
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michael

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« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2006, 07:36:31 am »

Phase One back lens cast is a completely different story.

It is a known situation that was not 'hidden" by the manufacturer, or by reviewers, intentionall or otherwise. Phase backs have shipped with software designed to address it, as well as hardware (the plastic card). There is no way this is a comparable situation.

Before starting to use the P25 and the P45 with ultrawide angle lenses and camera movements I truely had never seen the lens cast in thousands of shots taken. Of course when I did, it appeared, and I learned how to address it, just the way they describe in the Phase One manual (except that I use an Expodisk, because it's more convenient). I then wrote about that.

Michael
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Boghb

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« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2006, 08:26:43 am »

Michael

You are right; the P45 was different.  Also, you were using it with the H lenses, which in my experience produce virtually unnoticeable cast.  There too, the omission was not surprising and intentional.

But if you compare Phase and Leaf's treatment of this issue in the public announcements, there is a big difference.  Phase acknowledged the problem only with LF wide angles and movements, and then declined to call it a problem.  When people noticed it and complained, Phase and its supporters belittled them for failing to cope with an insignificant technical step.  Phase did not acknowledge that a hardware solution might be necessary, and its literature about the use of its software was inadequate and ambiguous so as not to say too much about a negative aspect of the product.

In the case of Leaf, I do not own their product, but am sure their cusotmers get a warm and fuzzy feeling every time they think about how it is dealing with the problem of lens cast.  Leaf is acknowledging the problem as a problem; it has provided a temporary software solution and is working hard on a hardware solution.  It has expressed regret to its customers and is actually talking them through the problem and the solution.

Do not get me wrong.  I am a loyal Phase user.  But I think these are valuable lessons for all of us, and hopefully the result will be higher quality and support standards for the consumer.

Again, thanks for your openness and candor.

Babak
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rothberg

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« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2006, 08:42:40 am »

For me, Michael’s explanation seems to be a genuine act of contrition.

I remain disappointed that this much anticipated camera, one that represents the best efforts of a fine old company is flawed in such an obvious way.  

I’ll get over it, Leica will fix the problem, and the sun will come up tomorrow.
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