New H3D full frame!!!

[James Russell]

James - FYI - the facts are all I've stated.

Regarding Mamiya, I do not have any information that they are in trouble. I was only making the point that the same business model and the same attempt to slavage their future has so far gone along very similar paths to Contax, and that worries me. I am not making any claim about Mamiya's financial condition - they could be rolling in money right now. As a Mamiya dealer, we anticipated a successful ZD product years ago, and the fact that they are still not available in the US market 3 years after an announcement is worrisome enough, regardless of their financial condition.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Steve,

My point is that is all anybody hears about this stuff is rumor, conjecture or problems.

If you are a new potential buyer of medium format you just shake your head and believe it's impossible to buy a camera.

I've let photographers use my Leaf/Contax and come back amazed that the cameras and back worked, after reading all the reports online.

When in reality, using my Leaf backs and my contax's I don't have any real issues, jams, CA, centerfold, colorcasts.  Actually none.

Your a Sinar and Leaf dealer.  If someone walked in today with cash in hand and wanted to buy a Sinar HY6 and a Leaf Aptus S series, you can't sell them, or even tell them when they will be available.

If someone wants to buy an H2 can you assure them that H2's will be made in a year, or the new lenses will even work on an H2?

My real point is for you it's an issue, maybe for Michael Reichman and his friend Mr. Raber it's an issue, but for a working photographer it's not an issue, we are just told by the people writing this dribble that it's an issue.

It's funny that for about 10 grand I can double my Contax system, throw it in a closet and use my two Leaf backs probably forever, becasue the Leaf file will work in Photoshop so I assume it will work in photoshop for a long time.

Then again I'm not in the business of getting my gallery show sponsored by Canon, or Hasselblad or giving a slide show to a bunch of guys with Viking hats.

I really doubt if Contax is going to be writing any checks, so for me it's just about what I can do with the cameras that are available today and why should I care if it comes from KEH or B+H.

It's all the same to me except what I buy at KEH costs less.

Still, for the potential buyer you would think there wasn't a camera that they could buy and use if you read and listen to the reports of the HY6, hasselblad and Mamiya.

You would also think that for many unless they can have the newest and the latest they can't take a photograph.

This week I used the A-22 and a Canon because both did different things very well.  If the A-22 becomes an A whatever and Canon comes out with a 1ds Mark whatever it doesn't change the fact that what I use today will work well tomorrow.

It's really not my business what any photographer uses for equipment but if someone asked, I'd say buy something that works today, that is available today and use it until the paint falls off.

I wouldn't get caught up in the wait for a better lcd, wireless or software promises that never really seem to be completely fullfilled and let somebody else cut themself up on the bleeding edge.

JR
[a href=\"http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com]http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com[/url]

[Willow Photography]

If someone wants to buy an H2 can you assure them that H2's will be made in a year, or the new lenses will even work on an H2?

Hi James

That is a strange question from a man that use Contax.  
Why should someone worry about if H2 will be made 2 years from now if
it works today. Just using your own logic,

And it it is not that many more different lenses made for Contax than H2.

And if there are no more lenses made for H2 - there will
surtenly not be made more lenses for Contax!


Willow

[med007]

Instead of waiting for new to appear, what about going with used tried and true? Much of the MF announcements is "vapor talk" by an ever shifting set of alliances!

So to me at least, there one important question. What is the current repair experience with Mamiya, Contax and H2.  What MF systems are at least repairable now and likely for the next several years?

Proven backs new or used are always available. So are used Contax or H1 and H2 bodies.

So which bodies would be best for repair at this time?

Asher Kelman
http://www.openphotographyforums.com

[pprdigital]

Steve,

My point is that is all anybody hears about this stuff is rumor, conjecture or problems.

http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

James -

That point is completely relevant and I think just about everyone on this board shares the same opinion.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar

[hubell]

James -

That point is completely relevant and I think just about everyone on this board shares the same opinion.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82728\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Steve:
Here is one data point that is not conjecture because this is what I was quoted. The H3D-39 with a prism and an 80mm lens is $28k, with the trade in of any old MF camera body(a Holga will do). An Aptus 75+ or Phase P45+ with an H2, the prism and the 80mm lens is $38,500. No doubt, the $10,500 price difference may not be great in practical terms if the H3D simply does not work effectively for you, but it sure is a reason to look seriously at whether the H3D CAN work for you  as well as the Aptus or the Phase, which is really what this discussion ought to about, rather than whether Hasselblad has violated the antitrust laws. (Not personal, Steve.) These are two real choices available now in the market

[Graham Mitchell]

4.  Who actually owns HY6, what is the complete new lens line, will 6008 lenses work on it, when will it be introduced and btw what is the suggested retail price?

Yes, the 6008 lenses will work. Expect to see it end of Q2 2007.

All of these companies websites and thier respective dealers are high on flash value and very low on real information

P.S.  In fact Steve, do you have any real information that Mamiya is in trouble?

Iirc, Mamiya sold off its camera division a few months ago to Cosmos Scientific Systems so the real question is: is CSS in trouble?

The only thing for a photographer to do is find something that works, find your own workarounds and stop worrying about what any of these companies do, because none of them will ever deliver what is on thier sales pdf and if all of them can change their direction in a hearbeat.

That seems to be true of the last 3 years or so but it wasn;t always like this. I sincerely hope this is just a short adjustment phase.

[pprdigital]

Steve:
Here is one data point that is not conjecture because this is what I was quoted. The H3D-39 with a prism and an 80mm lens is $28k, with the trade in of any old MF camera body(a Holga will do). An Aptus 75+ or Phase P45+ with an H2, the prism and the 80mm lens is $38,500. No doubt, the $10,500 price difference may not be great in practical terms if the H3D simply does not work effectively for you, but it sure is a reason to look seriously at whether the H3D CAN work for you  as well as the Aptus or the Phase, which is really what this discussion ought to about, rather than whether Hasselblad has violated the antitrust laws. (Not personal, Steve.) These are two real choices available now in the market
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82730\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ok, everyone keeps getting me confused with Steve Kerrman. I have not had any involvement in any posts regarding anti-trust this or that. That's the other Steve.

However, with regard to your point, I'm in agreement. In general, I would say that this industry has more than it's share of issues that are FUBAR. Photographers have to deal with it, and so do dealers. It's not fun. And it's real easy to get caught up in all that. But the bottom line remains: find equipment that you feel confident about and let it work for you.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar

[vgogolak]

What is the current repair experience with Mamiya, Contax and H2.  What MF systems are at least repairable now and likely for the next several years?


Asher Kelman
http://www.openphotographyforums.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wouldn'tknow about contax repair - with two bodies, almost all the lenses, both view finders, battery packs and film, plus now switching backs for Kodak to P25 to P45 (and lots of back and forth, beach, mountain tops and snow)

nothing seems to have broken,

With any of the three, so called 'dead' systems you have tonnes of supply. $700 waist finders? sounds like the new price for the H3D wouldnt be much different!

What is strange is all the hand wringing

I can't even get too excited about closed systems. The H3D? I expect IQ is pretty good, no use wondering why you can't have a Phase back on a H3D with contox finder and Silkypix firmware any more than you can buy a mercedes with a jaguar engine and a BMW steering system.

Explain the problem with this logic (I would love to know, so I can correct my think LOL)

Decide which system gives best IQ and workability
Decide if you can afford it
Decide if it is reliable (dead companies means nothing as long as you can use it for 10 years or more)
Buy it

I have a Phase with Contax 645 and a whole mess of lovely glass and thousands of images, only limited by ME!

In the meantime, what are YOU shooting, while waiting for the ideal solution? (not aimed at Asher, who asked a very sensible question. :-)

Victor

[James Russell]

Instead of waiting for new to appear, what about going with used tried and true? Much of the MF announcements is "vapor talk" by an ever shifting set of alliances!

So to me at least, there one important question. What is the current repair experience with Mamiya, Contax and H2.  What MF systems are at least repairable now and likely for the next several years?

Proven backs new or used are always available. So are used Contax or H1 and H2 bodies.

So which bodies would be best for repair at this time?

Asher Kelman
http://www.openphotographyforums.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've never heard of a Contax going down, but I have heard of people breaking them.

Nippon and Metro in Manhattan repairs contax, Ace in Flushing.

JR

[vgogolak]

I've never heard of a Contax going down, but I have heard of people breaking them.

Nippon and Metro in Manhattan repairs contax, Ace in Flushing.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82793\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear James

After all these years Ilikely should CLA some of my Contax 645 and Hasselblad CF lenses. Can you recommend someone?

Thanks in advance

Victor

[narikin]

Steve:
Here is one data point that is not conjecture because this is what I was quoted. The H3D-39 with a prism and an 80mm lens is $28k, with the trade in of any old MF camera body(a Holga will do). An Aptus 75+ or Phase P45+ with an H2, the prism and the 80mm lens is $38,500. No doubt, the $10,500 price difference may not be great in practical terms if the H3D simply does not work effectively for you, ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82730\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

umm, these figures aren't remotely right. a P45+ with an H2 body/80/prism kit should not set you back anything like $38,500.  The real world price difference with a H3D39 is more like $2300. Quite acceptable if you prefer Phase software and the + series better screen/noise. there's really not much in it.

[damien]

Top post James. Right on the nail.

I've been using my P25 for over 2 years now on my H1 and it is great. It will take as good pictures in 5 years time as it did when I bought it, unless I drop it or do something stupid. My photography has improved in leaps and bounds since I made the 'second mortgage' investment. The moral is that MF digital is here, working well, and has been for some time. I don't see anything on the horizon to change that. I've had the benefit of excellent kit for some time now and I use it with a freedom that doesn't reflect the price tag. It's a great working tool that has served me well for the past 45,000 frames and I expect to get another 100,000 frames before the camera needs replacing. Like my car, i'll trade in before it gets unreliable.

Damien.

[James Russell]

Top post James. Right on the nail.

I've been using my P25 for over 2 years now on my H1 and it is great. It will take as good pictures in 5 years time as it did when I bought it, unless I drop it or do something stupid. My photography has improved in leaps and bounds since I made the 'second mortgage' investment. The moral is that MF digital is here, working well, and has been for some time. I don't see anything on the horizon to change that. I've had the benefit of excellent kit for some time now and I use it with a freedom that doesn't reflect the price tag. It's a great working tool that has served me well for the past 45,000 frames and I expect to get another 100,000 frames before the camera needs replacing. Like my car, i'll trade in before it gets unreliable.

Damien.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I believe for every post of issues and cost with medium format there are probably 1000's of users that get the results of Damien, they're just not vocal about it.

None of these systems are perfect and waiting on the perfect system gets you nowhere.

Looking for a lower cost alternative really goes nowwhere either, though cost is not really the issue anymore if you use your camera and back a lot.

Investment is the key to success in any business and it takes time and money to get it right.

Most of the stories I hear about problems on set, or issues with digital come from photographers and digital techs that didn't fully know the systems they were using, or were not familiar enough with the camera/back/software to know how to quickly fix any glitch that could come up.

Knowing this, I prefer to say just 1/2 step back on buying new equipment.  It seems all of the digital world delivers product before it is 100% mature.


JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/]http://www.russellrutherford.com/[/url]

[pprdigital]

umm, these figures aren't remotely right. a P45+ with an H2 body/80/prism kit should not set you back anything like $38,500.  The real world price difference with a H3D39 is more like $2300. Quite acceptable if you prefer Phase software and the + series better screen/noise. there's really not much in it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No, I believe HCubbell is correct. But it bears confirming. If you use listed price, then an H3D-39 (with the medium format camera trade-in) is $28,995. An H2 camera kit will run $7,999. If the P45 is $29,995, then you're at $37,994. Unless the price of a P45 is listed as lower or there is some promo that reduces the price, $9,000 is the list price delta.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar

[hubell]

No, I believe HCubbell is correct. But it bears confirming. If you use listed price, then an H3D-39 (with the medium format camera trade-in) is $28,995. An H2 camera kit will run $7,999. If the P45 is $29,995, then you're at $37,994. Unless the price of a P45 is listed as lower or there is some promo that reduces the price, $9,000 is the list price delta.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Steve: just to be sure we are comparing apples to apples, does the $28,995 list price for the H3D-39 include a 3 yr. warranty, and is $29,995 the list for the P45+ with the 3 year warranty?

[pprdigital]

Steve: just to be sure we are comparing apples to apples, does the $28,995 list price for the H3D-39 include a 3 yr. warranty, and is $29,995 the list for the P45+ with the 3 year warranty?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82840\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hasselblad does not publish a 3 year warranty price as a package - it's treated as a separate line item. 3 year warranty on H3D-39 adds $5,000 ($2,500 per year). That covers the entire solution, including camera, and is a Hot Swap warranty. My understanding has been that top of the line Phase One backs normally sell for $29,995 with one year warranty and $32,995 with 3 year warranty.

I was using the one year warranty as a model. At the 3 year warranty, the gap closes a bit because Phase One only charges $3,000 for the extra two years, although that doesn't cover the camera.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar

[GhostDancer]

I got to see and test the H3D this past week in NYC. Made files both indoors and out. Shot the H3D / HC80 side by side with Leaf Aptus 75 on Contax/Zeiss 80, Phase P45 on H2/ HC80. Each camera was tripod mounted, same exposure same focal length lens.

The images from all three are so good that I would bet a weeks salary that NO ONE can tell the difference. Color on the H3D was outstanding.

Phaquer, do yourself a favor, get some sleep and stop stressing over the Contax 645. Get something that works and enjoy life.

Dancin on the other side.

Hoka Hay
Aho

[charles_m]

I got to see and test the H3D this past week in NYC. Made files both indoors and out. Shot the H3D / HC80 side by side with Leaf Aptus 75 on Contax/Zeiss 80, Phase P45 on H2/ HC80. Each camera was tripod mounted, same exposure same focal length lens.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Aho... can you upload the results of this testng of the three camara backs to your websight....

[Dinarius]

Been wading my way through this thread, on and off, over the last two days.

A lot to ponder and I have a couple of questions.........

1. I am getting the impression that the Hy6 is perceived as some kind of panacea due to its 'open source' approach to other manufacturers digital backs. This stance seems to be taken most fervently by those who would like to see Hasselblad given a bloody nose. My question is this........hasn't the Mamiya RZ provided this solution for years? What difference will the Hy6 make?

2. Having tried the Hassie CF-39MS and spoken to some who own one, its killer app, for me, (I am very close to buying one) is multi-shot.

I haven't tried either the 54-H  or the Evolution75H, both of which can be used with the Mamiya (again why the Hy6 fuss?) so I can't comment on their performance in MS relative to the Hassie. But, I don't like what I hear about Sinar's commercial stability and Sinar dealers are now like hen's teeth in my part of the world - another reason for me to be wary.

Factor in the on-back screen, which neither of the Sinar backs has and which is vital to me in day-to-day on location shooting, and I can't see any alternative, to be honest.

Yes, the 'closed' nature of the system is a pain for existing Hassie owners. I couldn't agree more. Fortunately, as with digital SLR (up to 3 years ago, I never owned a Canon camera. I was weaned on my beloved Olympus's - glorious glass!. Now I wouldn't part with my 5D for anything. In Mirror Up mode it is truly the equal of medium-format film, IMHO. But, I digress.........) I would be buying into Hassie for the first time. I have a shed load of Mamiya RB's and lenses - if I had made the switch to RZs earlier, I might think differently now about the Sinar backs. But, I didn't......

So, if you're in the market for the complete package of multi-shot, screen and lots of pixels, what's the alternative to Hassie?

Fantastic thread, by the way.

D.

[BJNY]

Dinarius,

Thank you for your perspective.  I, too, was impressed with the demo of the 39MS and will consider it against the eVolution75.

Curious you're worried about the stability of Sinar.  They are owned by the multi-billion dollar company Jenoptik, who are funding the R+D of the Hy6.  Billion, not million (who else can make this claim?)   makes them the most stable in my eyes.

Billy