Laptop and CRT - Windows XP

[Goldilocks]

I've just heard that on Windows XP, you can't use Spyder to calibrate 2 monitors. I was thinking of buying Spyder Express and sending my pictures to SnapFish to print. Would that work for color management?

However, my real question is: If I'm away for a week or two shooting and I want to edit my pictures through Raw Shooter and/or other photoeditors while the image is fresh in my mind on the laptop -- How do I best set up, calibrate, use and and work with the two monitors to accomadate my needs away and then back home? How do I work around Spyder or would you suggest something else for a serious amatuer?

( I'm shooting mostly landscapes with a Canon Powershot s70. I have a 1998 Trinitron 19" CRT and an HP Pavillion 5000 laptop that has a Mobil Intel® 945GM Expess Chipset Family video card with Windows XP Media Edition. I found the Trinitron being thrown out on the curb. I'm not a tech geek, but I was able to reset the monitor settings so that dpreviews.com A-Z tonal scale looked perfect to me from A-Z. My laptop monitor is going to be a challenge just to make the best out of it for using it while I'm away)

Any suggestions?

[Andrew Larkin]

The problem is that may not be able to have two profiles (one for each monitor) *active* at the same time.  This is a hardware limitation, not an WinXP limitation - that is, if the hardware can do it, WinXP will let you do it.

There is a download from Microsoft that gives a nice manager for your profiles.  See http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/d...lorcontrol.mspx

If I understand your situation, you have a laptop with an external monitor attached.

What you do is profile each monitor separately.  Then activate whichever profile is relevant for your situation at the time:

* Editing at home using the CRT as the primary monitor - apply the CRT profile.
* On the road with just the laptop - apply the laptop's LCD profile.

It may just happen that your hardware might allow both profiles to operate at the same time - you won't know for sure until you try it.

Andrew

[Goldilocks]

The problem is that may not be able to have two profiles (one for each monitor) *active* at the same time.  This is a hardware limitation, not an WinXP limitation - that is, if the hardware can do it, WinXP will let you do it.

There is a download from Microsoft that gives a nice manager for your profiles.  See http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/d...lorcontrol.mspx

Andrew
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Thanks Adrew. Yes, you understood me correctly about laptop with a CRT attached. That part I understood. I appreciate the information that you sent me.

Unfortunately, the more I hear (and think I understand) the more I get confused, and just have more questions. Just got off the phone with a salesperson at B&H. Claims that fixed setting on Spyder2 Express means only one color temperature 5500k.  Spyder2 suite has 4 mulitple settings. (He didn't say which). Spyder Pro has variable settings All of course at different, increasing costs.

My 1998 Trinitron CRT has two set color controls 9,300K and 5,000K (I believe) and a variable setting from 9,300k to 5,000k on a slider, but it dosent tell you which number you picked. It also has a reset button that is suppose to fix color based on lower brighness levels from usage over time. While it appears great, I don't know what the color temperature is (slider with no numbers). I'm confused about whether the Spyder2 Express would do the job.

And yes, i want to be able to calibrate my laptop as best as possible for when I'm not near a CRT and away for a few days.

And would this Microsoft Color  Control Panel Applet allow me to use my laptop on 3 different monitors (not all at the same time) so I don't have to run up and down the stairs all the time to see it on a CRT when I'm at home?

So I'm confused about which Spyder (or calibration tool) would be appropiate and cost effective for me. And are there any color incompatabiities using the mentioned softwares, calibration tools, applets, monitors, drivers, operating systems, hardware that I would need to understand?

An additional thought/question is, if I have old printers that are not supported by Spyder, is their a easy way to make an ICC profile, or just get around it, for  instant gratification. I have use of a HP Photosmart 7550 and Hp deskjet 5940. (Their inks are water soluable, and the photosmart photos fade very easily.) I'm planning on sending most of my photos to SnapFish for the real results.

Also, how can I tell if the Intel's latest driver version for my video card is what is best for me? I didn't dare download that yet. (I'm assuming that it would matter which driver you use while calibrating.) When I read Intel's site, it seems that what you don't know can hurt your computer. And lets face it. If it hurts my computer, it is going to hurt me even more so.

I always appreciate everyone's advice.

Thank You,
Linda
(Goldilocks)

[Mark D Segal]

Linda, you have a slew of questions there, so let us try to sort things out one by one.

Firstly, as a "serious amateur" - I am one too - one thing I have learned over the years is that sometimes it really pays to spend a bit more and get the right equipment for the job. The bit of extra money saves alot of time and frustration when cheaper things just don't cut it. In this case, for the monitor calbiration package we're not talking megabucks. If you buy a Monaco Optix XR, that is generally regarded as one of the best pieces of hardware on the market for profiling and calibrating a monitor, you can do both CRT and LCD with it. The important thing is also the software you use with it. If you look on this website you will find Michael's review for ColorEyes Display, made by Integrated Color Corporation. It is very good indeed, and will handle anything you are likely to throw at it. In fact. Integrated Color sells the software and the equipment (under the name X-Rite DP94, which is the same item) as a bundle, and it is reasonable for what it does.

The one thing you should check first, by emailing them - is to tell them what models of laptop, CRT and video cards you have in each piece of equipment. They should be able to tell you whether their tools will generate monitor profiles that you could use with confidence. You should do this before buying.  Now assuming it will work, once equipped with the proper tools, what you would do is install ColorEyes Display on both your laptop and desktop. You would use it in LCD mode for calibrating and profiling your laptop screen and in CRT mode for doing the same with your Trinitron. That way both screens will be consistent with eachother and show correct colours relative to the data in your image files. You cannot calibrate and profile two monitors operating off the same video card with the equipment you have. In any case I don't think this is a limitation for you, based on how you say you want to work. The important thing for you is that once you adjust the image file on your laptop, you want it to look the same on the desktop, and you want it to come out about the same from your printer. Correct?

Which brings us to the printer issue. If you want good matching between what you see from the printer and what you see on the monitor, you need to have ICC profiles (this is software) that are specific to the model of printer and paper you are using, and you need to be using Image editing software which can use those profiles for showing you on screen before printing what the printed image will look like (this is called "soft-proofing") and then managing the image file data being sent to the printer to print accordingly. The Spyder has nothing to do with this stage of the process. At this stage you are only concerned about the ICC profile and quality of the printer/paper being used.

Photoshop allows the use of ICC profiles for soft-proofing and preparing files for print. It is the only image editing application I regularly use, so I don't know what other programs also support these functions, but there are surely others. [Raw Shooter Premium does allow one to select printer profiles in the Batch/Convert window but I have not used this program for the printing stage so I am not sure how it handles ICC profiles for printing.]

Now since you say you will be sending the files to an outside service for the printing (SnapFish), ideally SnapFish should be able to send you an ICC profile that describes their printer and paper that they would be using for your prints. If you can get that profile from them, you would load it into your desktop and laptop so that you can use it with Photoshop (and perhaps Raw Shooter Premium) for final preparation of the files you will be sending them to print. That way, when you get the prints back what you receive should resemble quite closely what you saw on the monitor, provided you have done all this correctly.

I strongly suggest that you scroll through the tutorials and essays on this website dealing with the general topic of color management, where you will be able to read in more detail how all this works. Tim Grey's book "Color Confidence" (25 dollars at Amazon.con for example) is also a relatively inexpensive, very approachable, down-to-earth book to read on color management.

[Goldilocks]

You cannot calibrate and profile two monitors operating off the same video card with the equipment you have. In any case I don't think this is a limitation for you, based on how you say you want to work.
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Your advice sounded good except for the above quote. My desktop computer is a old Dell, slow Pentium !! 733 mHz, 256 ram. I recently puchased the laptop cause 1. I needed a better computer to use the graphic programs, have more than one program open at a time and/or handle 7-8 megapixel pictures and then edit layer, print, browse, etc. without it bombing out. 2. For alot of the time I spend on the computer, the mobility was a great advantage. I could at least learn and go online without sitting at the same desk in the same position. (I have a bad back). Are you correct that you can not calibrate and profile two monitors operating off the same video card? It doesn't have to be at the same time. That is what I was aiming for and was my entire intention when I purchased this laptop.

The currently purchased/installed Intel Graphics Media Accelerator Driver for Mobile does give you menu options for two displays when the 2nd monitor is attached. I'm not a tech geek, but I pray that you are wrong on the above quote or that there is a way around it.

I hear there is, I hear there isn't, but I don't understand enough to know the difference and what is involved. And the last thing I want to do is spend more just to find out that I still can't get the job done. I'll admit we aren't talking megabucks. But for me it is alot of money if it dosen't do what you need it to do -- Plus alot of aggravagtion that I'm trying to avoid.

Linda
(Goldilocks)
 

[Mark D Segal]

Linda, I do not know what model laptop and what video card you have in it, but I would be very surprised if you could calibrate two monitors. With most video cards whether in a laptop or a desktop it is not possible to calibrate both monitors when both are connected to the same video card. You can calibrate/profile the principal monitor. However, may I ask why do you need two calibrated monitors? Most people use the second monitor for displaying Photoshop menus (which don't need any colour management) and they use the principal monitor for displaying the image being worked on. This latter is important to be calibrated and profiled. If you are not sure you should ask the vendors. I certainly don't know the details of all the cards out there, but I am speaking from what is generally known to be the case for the vast majority of them.

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

Linda, I do not know what model laptop and what video card you have in it, but I would be very surprised if you could calibrate two monitors. With most video cards whether in a laptop or a desktop it is not possible to calibrate both monitors when both are connected to the same video card. You can calibrate/profile the principal monitor. However, may I ask why do you need two calibrated monitors? Most people use the second monitor for displaying Photoshop menus (which don't need any colour management) and they use the principal monitor for displaying the image being worked on. This latter is important to be calibrated and profiled. If you are not sure you should ask the vendors. I certainly don't know the details of all the cards out there, but I am speaking from what is generally known to be the case for the vast majority of them.
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Mark,

I think waht Linda wants to do is use the laptop when travelling or out doing photography, with its own display calibrated as well as possible so that she can do at least some meaningful picture editing while the original scene is fresh in her mind. Then, when she gets home, she wants to hook up the bigger monitor, also calibrated, so she can continue editing but on a larger screen. So she needs both calibrated, but will only use one at a time.

Do I have that right, Lisa?

Lisa,

If I'm right about that, then everything else Mark says is right on, and expressed with his usual clarity. The additional piece I would add is what to do when you switch from one monitor to the other. Andrew outlined it in an earlier post:

What you do is profile each monitor separately. Then activate whichever profile is relevant for your situation at the time:    * Editing at home using the CRT as the primary monitor - apply the CRT profile.  * On the road with just the laptop - apply the laptop's LCD profile.

When you make a profile, you give it a name, and it is useful to include something that tells you which monitor you profiled, and when you did it. So your laptop profile might have the name "laptop060930.icm", if you profiled it on September 30 this year, and the CRT profiel might have the name "CRT060930.icm" if done the same day. On a windows XP machine, these profiles will end up in a special windows directory for profiles (on my machine it is C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color.).

When you switch monitors, you will probably need to tell Windows that you are doing it, and which profile to use. One way is to right-click on a background area of your desktop, and click on "Properties". This should bring up a window labeled "Display Properties." Click on "Settings", where you can select the driver, resoluition, etc., for the monitor you have just connected. Then click on "Advanced", then on "color management", where you can select the profile for the monitor.

Before you switch to the CRT display, you should write down the settings (resolution, number of colors, etc.) for the main laptop screen, so you know what to set when you switch back.

There may be an easier way to switch monitors successfully, but this way works fine for me.

Everything else MarkDS said is right on and excellent advice.

I hope this helps.

[Mark D Segal]

Eric, yes, this is exactly what I suggested to her in exactly that scenario (moving between laptop and desktop) - that each monitor should be separately calibrated/profiled so that when she uses either one of them they will display the same files in about the same way - given the inherent character difference between an LCD and a CRT; but then Linda wrote back concerned about not being able to calibrate/profile both monitors off the same card, to which I suggested she would probably not be needing to do that anyhow.

[Goldilocks]

Mark,

I think waht Linda wants to do is use the laptop when travelling or out doing photography, with its own display calibrated as well as possible so that she can do at least some meaningful picture editing while the original scene is fresh in her mind. Then, when she gets home, she wants to hook up the bigger monitor, also calibrated, so she can continue editing but on a larger screen. So she needs both calibrated, but will only use one at a time.

Do I have that right, Lisa?


I hope this helps.
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  Yes, everything is right except my name. Linda (Goldilocks)  

It is starting to make a little sense to me. But do I need the Microsoft Color Control  Panel Applet? (I was looking at dpreviews forum and it seemed like highly knowledgable computer people where still tinkering with it. Then again everyone had a different video card, computer etc.)

As far as what I have, I have a HP Pavillion dv5000 series laptop, laptop monitor is True Color 32bit, Intel Centrino Duo, Windows XP MC,  with a mobile Intel 945GM Express Chipset Family video card, and a Intel Graphics Media Acceleration Driver for Mobile. The separate CRT is a 1998 Trinitron 19" Dell UltraScan P990 monitor. My main camera is a Canon powershot s70.

Maybe I don't know what I am talking about concerning calibrating two monitors with one video card. It seems like an issue when I read forums, articles and other peoples replies.

Also, since my camera is a compact Canon powershot s70. Wouldn't the Optix XR and ColorEyes be overkill for my equipment? (Remember, I'm planning on SnapFish for my final prints. Optix with ColorEyes did seem pricey compared to Spyder. And I get the feeling it is more complicated for someone like myself to use. I want to get this tech stuff over with so I can concentrate on being creative with the editing software and get back to making art including painting.)

I'm going to keep re-reading all the help i received on this topic. I just wanted to clarify what my first main goal was and what hardware I have. I'm hoping that you understand me, so I get the answers that best pertain to me.

If you'd like to add anything, clarify or change any thoughts, please do.

Thanks,
Linda
(Goldilocks)
 

[Mark D Segal]

Yes, everything is right except my name. Linda (Goldilocks)   

It is starting to make a little sense to me. But do I need the Microsoft Color Control  Panel Applet? (I was looking at dpreviews forum and it seemed like highly knowledgable computer people where still tinkering with it. Then again everyone had a different video card, computer etc.)

As far as what I have, I have a HP Pavillion dv5000 series laptop, laptop monitor is True Color 32bit, Intel Centrino Duo, Windows XP MC,  with a mobile Intel 945GM Express Chipset Family video card, and a Intel Graphics Media Acceleration Driver for Mobile. The separate CRT is a 1998 Trinitron 19" Dell UltraScan P990 monitor. My main camera is a Canon powershot s70.

Maybe I don't know what I am talking about concerning calibrating two monitors with one video card. It seems like an issue when I read forums, articles and other peoples replies.

Also, since my camera is a compact Canon powershot s70. Wouldn't the Optix XR and ColorEyes be overkill for my equipment? (Remember, I'm planning on SnapFish for my final prints. Optix with ColorEyes did seem pricey compared to Spyder. And I get the feeling it is more complicated for someone like myself to use. I want to get this tech stuff over with so I can concentrate on being creative with the editing software and get back to making art including painting.)

I'm going to keep re-reading all the help i received on this topic. I just wanted to clarify what my first main goal was and what hardware I have. I'm hoping that you understand me, so I get the answers that best pertain to me.

If you'd like to add anything, clarify or change any thoughts, please do.

Thanks,
Linda
(Goldilocks)
 
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Linda, I've been doing digital printing since 1999 and never came accross a Microsoft Color Control Panel Applet. It is not part of Windows, not supported by Microsoft eventhough they provide it, and most likely not at all necessary for what you want to do. I avoid downloading anything from Microsoft that they don't support, because even stuff they do support often causes problems they themselves don't know about until users notify them. I would disregard this.

I think we now understand that you will not be calibrating/profiling two monitors on one videa card, so you should disregard that issue too.

Your S70 is not a slouch camera - it is 7 MP and has RAW file format, both of which give you ALOT of image editing control and flexibility. So the investment you make in post-capture processing depends on your objectives for post-capture processing, not the camera. If you want good, predictable results, even sending the files to a third-party lab, a colour-managed workflow is worthwhile. And as you progress, you will most likely acquire a decent photo printer, by which time the present experience will have served you well.

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

Linda, I've been doing digital printing since 1999 and never came accross a Microsoft Color Control Panel Applet. It is not part of Windows, not supported by Microsoft eventhough they provide it, and most likely not at all necessary for what you want to do. I avoid downloading anything from Microsoft that they don't support, because even stuff they do support often causes problems they themselves don't know about until users notify them. I would disregard this.

I think we now understand that you will not be calibrating/profiling two monitors on one videa card, so you should disregard that issue too.

Your S70 is not a slouch camera - it is 7 MP and has RAW file format, both of which give you ALOT of image editing control and flexibility. So the investment you make in post-capture processing depends on your objectives for post-capture processing, not the camera. If you want good, predictable results, even sending the files to a third-party lab, a colour-managed workflow is worthwhile. And as you progress, you will most likely acquire a decent photo printer, by which time the present experience will have served you well.
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Linda,

(This time I found the "n" and the "d" instead of the "s".  Oops!     )

As usual, Mark is right on everything (icluding your name.) When I was first trying to do fairly simple digital color about three years ago, everything was coming out with truly awful colors, even with simple snapshots of relatives, where I struggled to get people to look human instead of like something out of a horror movie. Even my black-and-white prints had disgusting off-tints. Then I started seeing this phrase "color management" popping up here and there, and eventually I started trying to get it (somewhat) under control.

Over the past three years I have thrown a lot of money at the problem, and some of it has helped. The biggest help has consistently been the knowledge base on the LL forum.

I knew my printer was pretty good for its time: the Epson 2200. I wasted money on an Epson RIP, which didn't help, and I wasted time and paper on an Epson Gray Balancer (another software packege) that also never did anything useful. The things that worked for me were (1) a Monaco Optix package for profiling my monitor (and profiling papers, but my inexperience meant so-so results on the paper profiles), and (2) ImagePrint RIP software, which was hugely expensive but let me get away without having custom paper profiles. I now know that I could have gotten good results for much less money by buying custom profiles for the couple of papers I use from someone like Andrew Rodney ("Digital Dog.")

Mark is right that your S70 is capable of quite fine work, but getting your monitors (s) profiled is essential if you want to do any editing, and having a good printer profile is necessary for decent prints.

-Edmund (oops! I mean Eric)

[amtr_kid]

hello all,

urr i think ...i am a little bit "more amature"  than the ones who are eligible to post here(i am a regular visitor as a reader).
but i have a question that no body elsewhere would answer. thats why i am asking...

i have heard that (infact he would try to kill me if i wasn't stronger than him,as i was a bit confused)

"LCDs are better than CRTs cause the LCDs show us the data received for each pixel they display while the CRTs do it by a DAC convertion before throwing the electrons"

is that true?someone?please shed some light...

[Mark D Segal]

Sweeping general statements like that are usually rubbish and this one is no exception. There are so many variables that affect display quality, a number of different attributes that define "quality" and so much quality difference between LCDs within the LCD category and between CRTs within the CRT category that making comparisons between these categories is just about hopeless unless you have specific models of each in mind, and even then, one will be better/worse than the other in some respects but not others. All that said, LCD monitors are only now catching-up with the quality of the high-end Sony Artisan CRT. and at very high prices. Sony discontinued manufacturing the Artisan, so people who want really high-end monitor quality are having to pay fairly steep prices for photographic-quality LCDs.

[amtr_kid]

thnx a lot...
i wasn't expecting that quick a reply  
newez...

u guys are great...i learn something everytime i come here.

i am trying to become a serious amature...though i am photographing for last several years i couldn't be that serious for some constraints.
for the same constraints i have got rid of my older cameras.and got one cheap digicam.

but is there any place where you people show each others' your work?

"sorry that i asked...i found it"