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Author Topic: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave  (Read 1090 times)

etto1972

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Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« on: February 23, 2017, 08:47:26 AM »

I have posted on the Phase One forum this very same topic
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=116546.0
As you can see there is abslolutely nothing offensive, I clearly express how much i like the software..
and that although i respect their decision not to support other MF cameras I find sad that they intentionally
don't allow to import DNG 1.4 files from those camera, proving with a simple trick that the software is perfectly capable to read and edit those files!

As a result of that they cancelled my topic, not once but twice, without a single warning or explanation!

I am trying to ask myself:
Is that what people consider to be an acceptable behave?
Is that the way a company should treat their loyal costumers?

I am using C1 since version 3.7, i have been submitting features request for years
For the last 3 years part of their beta program, submitting any possible bug i could find!

Sorry to bother you guys
I just feel upset about all that

Best to all
Ettore
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 07:19:23 PM by etto1972 »
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Paul2660

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Re: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2017, 09:15:19 AM »

Since Phase One has made it quite clear that they do not intend to support other non P1 MF cameras, it's clear that they don't want the subject matter to be covered on their forum.  They pay for the forum so I would say it's up to them what they allow.

You have published this exif hack on LuLa and Getdpi, which allow probably more access to Hasselblad users than the P1 forum, as I would not expect to many Hasselblad users to frequent the P1 forum. 

The news of editing the exif header is not new news either, I have done it for years on various cameras that shared sensors.  Mostly when P1 was slow to get the support added to C1.  As at least 3 other brands now use this 50MP sensor, odds are that you will be able to continue to work like this.  However in the long run, at least to me, it's more pain than it's worth.  Editing a few exif headers is not a big deal, but editing a days worth, a bit more tasking.  I have a great editor with a gui interface, but in gui mode it's one image at a time.  You have to run a batch job to make a large number of changes. And you also have to keep 2 sets of files as if you want to use same raw in a non C1 raw converter you would want the software to see the correct camera info.

The dng support issue in C1 is also long in the tooth, odd are it will never happen fully.  But even if it did, you are still compromised since you would not have a dedicated camera profile for your camera.  I also have supported C1 since early 2004 and would rather that they become a true software solution across the board, but that is not their corporate direction.  P1 continues to keep their prices in the stratosphere, however so odds are in time they will either be forced to change said policy or find another direction.  The cost differential of close to 12K to 15K will be harder to justify.  Also P1 doesn't even have a camera platform to compete with the new mirrorless MF offerings from Hasselblad, Fuji and maybe soon Sony themselves.

But P1 IMO is not being rude to pull the post, they own the site and are just holding the line of current P1 corporate policy.

Paul Caldwell
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Rado

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Re: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2017, 10:36:21 AM »

There's no such thing as corporate loyalty, none. You should not expect anything in return for being a customer except what's written in the contract/license (if that).
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hubell

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Re: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2017, 11:25:22 AM »

Since Phase One has made it quite clear that they do not intend to support other non P1 MF cameras, it's clear that they don't want the subject matter to be covered on their forum.  They pay for the forum so I would say it's up to them what they allow.

You have published this exif hack on LuLa and Getdpi, which allow probably more access to Hasselblad users than the P1 forum, as I would not expect to many Hasselblad users to frequent the P1 forum. 

The news of editing the exif header is not new news either, I have done it for years on various cameras that shared sensors.  Mostly when P1 was slow to get the support added to C1.  As at least 3 other brands now use this 50MP sensor, odds are that you will be able to continue to work like this.  However in the long run, at least to me, it's more pain than it's worth.  Editing a few exif headers is not a big deal, but editing a days worth, a bit more tasking.  I have a great editor with a gui interface, but in gui mode it's one image at a time.  You have to run a batch job to make a large number of changes. And you also have to keep 2 sets of files as if you want to use same raw in a non C1 raw converter you would want the software to see the correct camera info.

The dng support issue in C1 is also long in the tooth, odd are it will never happen fully.  But even if it did, you are still compromised since you would not have a dedicated camera profile for your camera.  I also have supported C1 since early 2004 and would rather that they become a true software solution across the board, but that is not their corporate direction.  P1 continues to keep their prices in the stratosphere, however so odds are in time they will either be forced to change said policy or find another direction.  The cost differential of close to 12K to 15K will be harder to justify.  Also P1 doesn't even have a camera platform to compete with the new mirrorless MF offerings from Hasselblad, Fuji and maybe soon Sony themselves.

But P1 IMO is not being rude to pull the post, they own the site and are just holding the line of current P1 corporate policy.

Paul Caldwell

Ettore, I completely agree with Paul about this. I am also very disappointed that Phase has "closed"  Capture One to other medium format systems, but it is what is. Given their long standing policy, I can't fault them for deleting a post that refers to how you can use a hack to get around that policy.
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etto1972

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Re: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2017, 12:58:05 PM »

Ettore, I completely agree with Paul about this. I am also very disappointed that Phase has "closed"  Capture One to other medium format systems, but it is what is. Given their long standing policy, I can't fault them for deleting a post that refers to how you can use a hack to get around that policy.

Thanks for your reply

I see your and Paul's point
but I am not complaining the lack of support for Hasselblad raws, which of course means work and time spending (profiling lenses, colors, sharpening and noise reduction settings, etc.)
i just find that unfair that  they claim DNG 1.4 support but intenionally filtered files from Hasselblad or other MF

They certainly have the right to take off a post but i still think thats not  the  way to treat loyal costumers

Thanks
Ettore
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AnthonyM

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Re: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2017, 01:55:11 PM »

Let me get this right, Capture One has the right to censor a forum on this website if it thinks that a post is not in its commercial interests?

If this is right, then I'm out of here.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2017, 02:03:55 PM »

Hi,

I don't know what you mean with the statement "As a result of that they cancelled my topic, not once but twice, without a single warning or explanation!", who are "they"?

That said, I share your opinion. If you support DNG you don't lock out perfectly good DNG files. That is false marketing. It is also false marketing to talk about 16 bit colour depth when all the raw files you ever delivered were 14 bits, which happens to be the case with the exception of the IQ3100 MP, the first Phase One digital back that actually uses a 16 bit file.

Best regards
Erik



I have posted on the Phase One forum this very same topic
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=116546.0
As you can see there is abslolutely nothing offensive, I clearly express how much i like the software..
and that although i respect their decision not to support other MF cameras I find sad that they intentionally
don't allow to import DNG 1.4 files from those camera, proving with a simple trick that the software is perfectly capable to read and edit those files!

As a result of that they cancelled my topic, not once but twice, without a single warning or explanation!

I am trying to ask myself:
Is that what people consider to be an acceptable behave?
Is that the way a company should treat their loyal costumers?

I am using C1 since version 3.7, i have been submitting features request for years
For the last 3 years part of their beta program, submitting any possible bug i could find!

Sorry to bother you guys
I just feel angry and sad

Best to all
Ettore

kikashi

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Re: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2017, 02:40:58 PM »

Let me get this right, Capture One has the right to censor a forum on this website if it thinks that a post is not in its commercial interests?

If this is right, then I'm out of here.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick. Read the original post with a little more care and calm down.

Jeremy
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Endeavour

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Re: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2017, 03:08:02 PM »



they own the site and are just holding the line of current P1 corporate policy.



I think I died a little inside reading that line


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Paul2660

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Re: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2017, 03:13:50 PM »

I think I died a little inside reading that line

Not sure why?  The Phase One forum is totally run by P1, not an independent like LuLa.  Thus P1 can control the content as the please.  I may have misunderstood where the OP was posting, but it sounded like it was the formal P1 Capture forum, which is 100% owned by P1.

Paul Caldwell
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2017, 03:41:32 PM »

Hi,

I think that a forum should always allow for constructive critique or constructive discussion. Forums for mutual admiration may be nice, but they will never be constructive.

Best regards
Erik






Not sure why?  The Phase One forum is totally run by P1, not an independent like LuLa.  Thus P1 can control the content as the please.  I may have misunderstood where the OP was posting, but it sounded like it was the formal P1 Capture forum, which is 100% owned by P1.

Paul Caldwell

tim wolcott

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Re: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2017, 01:47:28 AM »

Really, people its a business decision.  Why should they spend their money for very little return.  They have other things to focus their time on.  Like supporting the people who actually buy their products.  Its a small company who is trying to make profits for their SHAREHOLDERS. Personally I would have cut them out along time ago.  It costs a huge amount of money and time to fix all of the problems these companies create, why would they help a competitor.

If you don't like it Invent it yourself.  I did it with printing processes.  I created the first pairs and coatings and still do it to this day. TW
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2017, 02:18:22 AM »

Hi Tim,

I have some sympathy for the OP, if you happen to have a C1 based workflow and you have to switch because you want to use a non Team Phase One MFD camera it is quite natural that you would be pissed off.

Capture One claims they support DNG, that is good as the lack of support for DNG was one of the reasons I never used C1. Just to say, I had a license for versions 7 and 8. Once they support DNG, there is no research involved to support a specific camera, as DNG already has the necessary DCP data for colour conversion. Also the OP found that just changing the name "Hasselblad" to "Hasselbla" allows the processing of X1D files. It is just pitifulů

For me it doesn't matter. I own a Phase One back and don't use Capture One anyway. Why, because my workflow is based on Lightroom and DNG. Decision I made back in 2006, as Lightroom had most of the features I was looking for at that time. The P45+ back I have is supported by Lightroom, if it was not supported I would never bought it.

Best regards
Erik

Really, people its a business decision.  Why should they spend their money for very little return.  They have other things to focus their time on.  Like supporting the people who actually buy their products.  Its a small company who is trying to make profits for their SHAREHOLDERS. Personally I would have cut them out along time ago.  It costs a huge amount of money and time to fix all of the problems these companies create, why would they help a competitor.

If you don't like it Invent it yourself.  I did it with printing processes.  I created the first pairs and coatings and still do it to this day. TW

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Re: Phase One forum: Not the right way to behave
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2017, 08:50:31 PM »

If the people don't like it.  Then they should spend the millions needed to make the software work at the level it does with a Phase file. 

When I didn't like the way prints were being made and I knew it could be made better.  I went to these companies like Kodak and others and they laughed or gave me the run around.  So I did it myself and now look Pigment prints are the best printing process in the world with an open platform on many levels.  You can use different papers, weights, thicknesses, materials and machines and coatings.  So I made the first papers and coatings when we invented the pigment printing process. It cost me a fortune to do it and I'm still doing it. 

It just didn't fit there business plan and they felt threatened.  I told them then I would do it, and now some are bankrupted.  Capture One is a great software, but I'm not a software guy I'm a hands on physical inventor.  But I didn't want too, but I had to, so I could make the best prints possible for exhibition.  But I make my living selling photographs and I hated the other processes.  Tim
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