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Author Topic: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution  (Read 6396 times)

etto1972

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Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« on: February 21, 2017, 11:07:56 AM »

I have been a Capture One user since version 3.7
Despite I know extremely well Aperture 3 and all itinerations of Lightroom, I still regard this software as the very best in the market!!

I am waiting to receive my Hasselblad X1D and I would like to share my thoughts about my situation

We all know that Capture One is very unlikely to support the X1D just as they don't support the Leica S or the Pentax 645Z and I have learned to respect this position... but I find really sad that they intentionally don't allow the software to import DNG files from those cameras
There is absolutely no technical reason why Capture One should not be able to read those files since C1 support Adobe DNG 1.4
and the little trick below shows perfectly my point

Those are 2 Hasselblad raw files, which I exported as DNG using Phocus (at this point C1 won't even see the DNG files)
Then with an exif editor cancelled the final letter "d" from the word "Hasselblad"
See the missing "d" ?

This is not a typical hack, like those users that have changed the Exif name from Pentax 645Z in to Phase One IQ150....
here the software can perfectly read and edit the DNG 1.4 from cameras like the x1D or H6D, taking the "d" off unlocks that!

I am not pretending C1 to support those cameras natively, which is what many potential users wish
and obviously with DNG files from cameras which Phase One didn't profile there is no support for specific Lens correction or Color profile, just a generic one (which you can tweak if you know how)

As a loyal custumer I am only asking Phase One to stop filtering those DNG based on the camera brand name and allow those files to be imported

I know that there are a lot of great people at Phase One, my wife is Danish and I am in Copenhagen very often, I love the mentality and open minded approach people living there have so I hope they can consider this request that comes form people like me that love this software so much!!

Until then I don't have choice, I personally prefer to deal (time consuming) with removing that "d" then switching software and trowing away thousands of dollars and more then 10 years of work !

Thanks for listening
Ettore
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Rado

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2017, 01:06:19 PM »

Now you've done it. The next C1 version will filter for "Hasselbla" too.

(Sorry I don't have anything serious to add as I find P1's strategy in this area rather pathetic).
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2017, 01:48:37 PM »

Hi,

Thanks for posting.

It is quite obvious that Phase One does this because they feel that supporting competitive MFD in C1 would harm their MFDB sales, but doing that harms their Capture One users.

On the other hand Lightroom is said to work vey well with the X1D. Yes, I know it is not much help for Capture One users learning curves can be steep and C1 does have some advantages over Lightroom/ACR. Worth noting is that Lightroom does not support the IQ3100MP. Some other programs do support it.

For me it doesn't matter, I am happy with LR, roll my own colour profiles and cannot afford an IQ-series Phase One camera anyway. Capture One supports both my kits Phase One P45+ and Sony A7rII and does it with no cost, so I can tinker around with it and see what I miss…

Best regards
Erik

I have been a Capture One user since version 3.7
Despite I know extremely well Aperture 3 and all itinerations of Lightroom, I still regard this software as the very best in the market!!

I am waiting to receive my Hasselblad X1D and I would like to share my thoughts about my situation

We all know that Capture One is very unlikely to support the X1D just as they don't support the Leica S or the Pentax 645Z and I have learned to respect this position... but I find really sad that they intentionally don't allow the software to import DNG files from those cameras
There is absolutely no technical reason why Capture One should not be able to read those files since C1 support Adobe DNG 1.4
and the little trick below shows perfectly my point

Those are 2 Hasselblad raw files, which I exported as DNG using Phocus (at this point C1 won't even see the DNG files)
Then with an exif editor cancelled the final letter "d" from the word "Hasselblad"
See the missing "d" ?

This is not a typical hack, like those users that have changed the Exif name from Pentax 645Z in to Phase One IQ150....
here the software can perfectly read and edit the DNG 1.4 from cameras like the x1D or H6D, taking the "d" off unlocks that!

I am not pretending C1 to support those cameras natively, which is what many potential users wish
and obviously with DNG files from cameras which Phase One didn't profile there is no support for specific Lens correction or Color profile, just a generic one (which you can tweak if you know how)

As a loyal custumer I am only asking Phase One to stop filtering those DNG based on the camera brand name and allow those files to be imported

I know that there are a lot of great people at Phase One, my wife is Danish and I am in Copenhagen very often, I love the mentality and open minded approach people living there have so I hope they can consider this request that comes form people like me that love this software so much!!

Until then I don't have choice, I personally prefer to deal (time consuming) with removing that "d" then switching software and trowing away thousands of dollars and more then 10 years of work !

Thanks for listening
Ettore

paulster

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2017, 12:02:47 PM »

I think it's somewhat underhand of P1 to deliberately cripple the application when it finds particular EXIF information.  Not offering camera and lens profiles - fine - but this feels tacky to me since they are deliberately breaking the product and at the same time claiming DNG compatibility.

But that's a business decision, and they're free to do what they want with their product.

Notwithstanding that, Alex Munoz developed the CaptureFix utility for Pentax 645Z files to process the header information in batch so he could use the files in C1.  It may also work with Hassy files since it processes DNGs, so if you want to use C1 then it could be worth checking out.

I haven't used it since I don't relish the thought of not having camera and lens profiles, but it should be an easy thing to try.
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ErikKaffehr

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Just to say…
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2017, 01:52:53 PM »

Hi,

A position I may take is that if Capture One supports DNG, they should support it fully. DNG does support lens profiles and it does support DCP camera profiles. If a software claims it supports DNG, it should support both lens correction and DCP profiles.

Now, DNG is not the optimal solution to any issues ever encountered by (wo)man. But it would be reasonable that a program that claims to support DNG would also honour DCP profile data and lens correction data. After all, DNG specifications are fully open. Adobe's implementation, that is another thing. It may contain some 'secret sauce'.

If Capture One rejects legal DNG files based on EXIF information or maker's tags, I would say that make a false claim of supporting DNG.

Back in 2006, I decided on using DNG as my preferred file format. It is not that I very much like Adobe, but I strongly oppose the uncontrolled growth of undocumented raw formats. I don't say that going DNG is the optimal choice, for me it is a bit ideological.

Just to say, RawTherapee, Iridient's RawDeveloper and AccuRaw all support DNG and DCP profiles. So, I see very little reason to use any program that doesn't fully support my preferrred raw format.

Best regards
Erik

G.A.

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2017, 05:09:30 PM »

etto1972

I say the following with the utmost respect.

This is big business!
This is all about the selling of medium format backs.

You think that Capture One is the worlds best image processing software.  Great.  As you know Capture One software is the proprietary software that runs Leaf and Phase One backs and the pro version accepts smaller chip camera files as a non proprietary software. Smaller chip cameras don't compete with the selling of Phase One and Leaf digital backs.  Phase One doesn't want anyone to buy a Hasselblad digital back, they want them to purchase a Phase One product, likewise Hasselblad doesn't want anybody purchasing a Phase One product.  By Phase One supporting Hasselblad DNG files, as you want to happen, will be damaging Phase One's core business of selling digital backs and their long term viability as a business.

You should complain to Hasselblad that their Phocus software isn't up to par with Capture One and they should improve it rather than demanding a competing company support Hasselblad's hardware through a dng workaround.

It seems obvious to me that the Phase One forum, which is owned by Phase One, is protecting it's own business interest by deleting your topics/posts regarding Hasselblad dng file use in Capture One.  The bottom line is they want consumers to purchase Phase One or Leaf backs and don't want folks shouting to the world on their own forum how to subvert the software.

Isn't it clear to you that the superiority of Capture One over Phocus is a selling point for Phase One and Leaf backs making a compelling reason to purchase a Phase One/Leaf back over a competing product?

Best,
G.A.
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JV

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2017, 06:24:26 PM »

Vote with your wallet!  Stop using C1.  I did the same for the same reason...
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etto1972

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2017, 09:54:52 PM »

etto1972

I say the following with the utmost respect.

This is big business!
This is all about the selling of medium format backs.

You think that Capture One is the worlds best image processing software.  Great.  As you know Capture One software is the proprietary software that runs Leaf and Phase One backs and the pro version accepts smaller chip camera files as a non proprietary software. Smaller chip cameras don't compete with the selling of Phase One and Leaf digital backs.  Phase One doesn't want anyone to buy a Hasselblad digital back, they want them to purchase a Phase One product, likewise Hasselblad doesn't want anybody purchasing a Phase One product.  By Phase One supporting Hasselblad DNG files, as you want to happen, will be damaging Phase One's core business of selling digital backs and their long term viability as a business.

You should complain to Hasselblad that their Phocus software isn't up to par with Capture One and they should improve it rather than demanding a competing company support Hasselblad's hardware through a dng workaround.

It seems obvious to me that the Phase One forum, which is owned by Phase One, is protecting it's own business interest by deleting your topics/posts regarding Hasselblad dng file use in Capture One.  The bottom line is they want consumers to purchase Phase One or Leaf backs and don't want folks shouting to the world on their own forum how to subvert the software.

Isn't it clear to you that the superiority of Capture One over Phocus is a selling point for Phase One and Leaf backs making a compelling reason to purchase a Phase One/Leaf back over a competing product?

Best,
G.A.

Do you really thing that allowing DNG import from files of the X1D or GFX would effect sales of Phase One cameras???
A new user would never buy C1 if they don't support their camera, but what about the C1 costumers?
Allowing to import all DNG 1.4 files is far from being  an optimal solution but at list existing users have a chance to keep their workflow!

What would you do in their place?
buying a Phase one?
I don't see a mirrorless product in their catalog and this is the reason I bought the X1D!

Best
E


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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2017, 02:04:10 AM »

Another way to see it that Phase One does not properly support DNG if they exclude specific makes. DNG is an open format. Phase One says they support DNGs. If they don't open a proper DNG file they don't support DNG.

Best regards
Erik



etto1972

I say the following with the utmost respect.

This is big business!
This is all about the selling of medium format backs.

You think that Capture One is the worlds best image processing software.  Great.  As you know Capture One software is the proprietary software that runs Leaf and Phase One backs and the pro version accepts smaller chip camera files as a non proprietary software. Smaller chip cameras don't compete with the selling of Phase One and Leaf digital backs.  Phase One doesn't want anyone to buy a Hasselblad digital back, they want them to purchase a Phase One product, likewise Hasselblad doesn't want anybody purchasing a Phase One product.  By Phase One supporting Hasselblad DNG files, as you want to happen, will be damaging Phase One's core business of selling digital backs and their long term viability as a business.

You should complain to Hasselblad that their Phocus software isn't up to par with Capture One and they should improve it rather than demanding a competing company support Hasselblad's hardware through a dng workaround.

It seems obvious to me that the Phase One forum, which is owned by Phase One, is protecting it's own business interest by deleting your topics/posts regarding Hasselblad dng file use in Capture One.  The bottom line is they want consumers to purchase Phase One or Leaf backs and don't want folks shouting to the world on their own forum how to subvert the software.

Isn't it clear to you that the superiority of Capture One over Phocus is a selling point for Phase One and Leaf backs making a compelling reason to purchase a Phase One/Leaf back over a competing product?

Best,
G.A.

BartvanderWolf

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2017, 06:05:53 AM »

Another way to see it that Phase One does not properly support DNG if they exclude specific makes. DNG is an open format. Phase One says they support DNGs.

Hi Erik,

A small nuance, they say they support the DNG 1.4 specification, but that still leaves the actual processing of data wide open. Due to the very different processing pipeline, they have to choose how much time and resources they want to spend on supporting a mostly superfluous file format (after all, most original Raw formats are fully supported, so why spend time on a modified variant of that same data). The conversion quality of most DNGs has improved, although it may not be quite as good (although close) as from original Raw formats.

I also find it disappointing that Capture One does not support certain camera models, but that's a choice that Phase One can make, it's their product and they have to protect their other business as well. Without having more insider data, it's hard to tell if it is a wise decision or not.

Cheers,
Bart
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Harald L

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2017, 07:07:54 AM »

Hi Erik,

.... Without having more insider data, it's hard to tell if it is a wise decision or not.

Cheers,
Bart

Must be very wise. As a Fuji-X-User I have to change to LR in a few weeks when my GFX arrives.

So sad, but as a victim of a wise decision I feel much better. (sarkasm off)
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2017, 08:20:18 AM »

Must be very wise. As a Fuji-X-User I have to change to LR in a few weeks when my GFX arrives.

So sad, but as a victim of a wise decision I feel much better. (sarkasm off)

Hi Harald,

I agree, but I can't verify whether selling more Capture One licenses/upgrades will add up to more than selling an 'x'-number of Phase One backs/cameras. It's kind of important to allow paying for the research and development for future products.

I too have questioned the decision, because there might be more money to be made by selling more licenses to many more MF body users (Pentax+Fuji with a huge home and international market) than Phase One is ever going to sell of their Phase One products, due to the different price points. It depends on the number of Phase One products they sell, and the net profit margin of selling hardware through a dealer channel.

Someone who will never (be able or willing to) spend the money to buy a Phase One product, may well be able and willing to spend money on a Pentax/Fuji MF camera, and buy Capture One licenses+upgrades over time. The fear is of course that those who do consider buying a Phase One product, will opt for a cheaper competitive product instead, thus effectively killing their hardware division over time. That's not an simple bet. There are no second chances, once it's gone, it remains gone. There is also a lot of know-how coming from developing hardware and understanding the required software workarounds, so that's another aspect at risk of getting lost.

The competition with Hasselblad (and DJI) may have different trade-offs than with Ricoh-Pentax/Fuji.

So I do understand the difficult dilemmas that Phase One is facing, and the irritation at the (potential) user's side. But that's unfortunately how things are at the moment.

Cheers,
Bart
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Harald L

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2017, 08:39:31 AM »

In a perfect world they would fix that issue by their pricing model. I would totally understand if they would charge a decent premium for a MF license.
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etto1972

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2017, 09:12:24 AM »

Hi Erik,

A small nuance, they say they support the DNG 1.4 specification, but that still leaves the actual processing of data wide open. Due to the very different processing pipeline, they have to choose how much time and resources they want to spend on supporting a mostly superfluous file format (after all, most original Raw formats are fully supported, so why spend time on a modified variant of that same data). The conversion quality of most DNGs has improved, although it may not be quite as good (although close) as from original Raw formats.

I also find it disappointing that Capture One does not support certain camera models, but that's a choice that Phase One can make, it's their product and they have to protect their other business as well. Without having more insider data, it's hard to tell if it is a wise decision or not.

Cheers,
Bart

Hi Bart
They don't have to spent resources to support DNGs from the X1D or GFX or Pentax 645Z
Once those  RAW are converted as DNG 1.4 there is nothing that prevents C1 to import those files except Phase One  decision to go against.
Do you realize that only thing i did to those DNG was to take off the final "d" from "Hasselblad" ?

A potential C1 which buy a GFX will never consider to buy this software since it would luck the specific custom made Raw support, while an existing customer like me could have in the DNG generic support a way to keep his workflow

Thanks
Ettore
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2017, 11:30:09 AM »

Hi Bart
They don't have to spent resources to support DNGs from the X1D or GFX or Pentax 645Z
Once those  RAW are converted as DNG 1.4 there is nothing that prevents C1 to import those files except Phase One  decision to go against.
Do you realize that only thing i did to those DNG was to take off the final "d" from "Hasselblad" ?

Sure, and a basic conversion will be the result, but that's not a highly optimized conversion (profiles, colors, mapping of dead pixels, calibration of e.g. sensor tiles, noise reduction settings for different ISOs, etc., and whatever other secret sauce is hidden in the EXIF maker notes). Lens parameters will also need to be separately defined because Adobe uses its own models for that, and that might also affect things like diffraction correction and other/future features. That would require shooting hundreds of images and tweaking of many settings, so it does take a lot of additional work.

It would also require a significant number of potential licensees to make the investment of resources worth while, and the GFX might create a tipping point, who knows.

Not that the basic conversion is that bad, but when pushing things to the limit the additional refinements will pay off.

Cheers,
Bart
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paulster

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2017, 12:30:47 PM »

Sure, and a basic conversion will be the result, but that's not a highly optimized conversion (profiles, colors, mapping of dead pixels, calibration of e.g. sensor tiles, noise reduction settings for different ISOs, etc., and whatever other secret sauce is hidden in the EXIF maker notes). Lens parameters will also need to be separately defined because Adobe uses its own models for that, and that might also affect things like diffraction correction and other/future features. That would require shooting hundreds of images and tweaking of many settings, so it does take a lot of additional work
This is exactly why I haven't bothered with C1, despite having at my fingertips the utility to allow me to load Pentax 645z files into it by tweaking the EXIF data.

The real benefit from these files doesn't come until you have good lens profiles, colour profiles, etc., and C1 without that isn't going to yield the kind of results it is (theoretically) capable of.

If they would support competitors then I'd most likely buy it, even at a premium for MF support, but clearly someone at P1 has done the math and considered that the additional revenue they could achieve from C1 sales presents too much of a risk to P1 hardware sales, at least at the moment.

It will be interesting to see how P1 responds to the mirrorless MF models from Fuji and Hasselblad though, as this could significantly open up the potential customer-base for C1.  Although my guess is that they'd likely allow MF mirrorless before opening it up to all MF systems even if they were to cave into this demand.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2017, 12:32:45 PM »

Hi Bart,

I would suggest that Phase One probably have the engineering skills to use the colour conversion matrices supplied by DCP to convert any DNG image to their internal colour space. Supporting DNG has some great advantages:

  • There is only need to implement a conversion for a single specification
  • Tools for generating DCP profiles are automatically supported
  • Access to a lot of free profiling tools

Most conversation guidelines I have read stated that open raw formats must be used for image conservation. The only open raw format having traction now is DNG.

Another small point, made by James Russel (AKA BCooter here on LuLa). He says that any time you send an image to a professional retoucher that person will open that image in ACR. James Russel used to be a strong advocate of Capture One. My impression is that he dumped it in favour of Lightroom. In part due to licensing issues, but I guess the fact that C1 did not support his favourite camera system, Leica S2 may have played a major role.

Let's put it this way. If Capture One supports Hasselblad DNGs with a minor miss-spelling of Hasselblad,but not with correct spelling,  it is pitiful.

Best regards
Erik


Hi Erik,

A small nuance, they say they support the DNG 1.4 specification, but that still leaves the actual processing of data wide open. Due to the very different processing pipeline, they have to choose how much time and resources they want to spend on supporting a mostly superfluous file format (after all, most original Raw formats are fully supported, so why spend time on a modified variant of that same data). The conversion quality of most DNGs has improved, although it may not be quite as good (although close) as from original Raw formats.

I also find it disappointing that Capture One does not support certain camera models, but that's a choice that Phase One can make, it's their product and they have to protect their other business as well. Without having more insider data, it's hard to tell if it is a wise decision or not.

Cheers,
Bart

Rado

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2017, 04:16:07 PM »

He says that any time you send an image to a professional retoucher that person will open that image in ACR.

Every high end retoucher for fashion/beauty/portrait I follow (e.g. Carrie Bene, Pratik Naik, Natalia Taffarel etc) uses and recommends C1. Tethering also works very reliably in C1, unlike in LR. In short, C1 is really good software, that's why P1's strategy is so disappointing from the point of view of a photographer.
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G.A.

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2017, 06:44:30 PM »

Do you really thing that allowing DNG import from files of the X1D or GFX would effect sales of Phase One cameras???
A new user would never buy C1 if they don't support their camera, but what about the C1 costumers?
Allowing to import all DNG 1.4 files is far from being  an optimal solution but at list existing users have a chance to keep their workflow!

What would you do in their place?
buying a Phase one?
I don't see a mirrorless product in their catalog and this is the reason I bought the X1D!

Best
E

Ultimately I do think it could impact their sales.  Thing is, no one knows if Phase One is going to introduce a mirrorless camera like the Hasselblad and Fuji.  I think they are looking out for their business by this policy. 

What would I do, I would use Lightroom or try Phocus and hope that it is better than when I used it last about three years ago.  Actually I like Lightroom a lot and find myself using it for my personal photos more often than Capture One but I use Capture One daily for commercial work.  I truly believe that this is about a total solution of camera and software and it should make people think before making a purchase, and I get this is a different kind of camera than what Phase One currently manufactures but who knows if they are going to introduce a camera of this type in the future.

The arguments that they don't totally support the DNG 1.4 standard because they have blocked Hasselblad files to me is absurd.  Phase One is making folks in the market for a medium format camera system to really weigh the options of what RAW processor they can use with some other brand cameras and if it's worth it not being able to use Capture One.

Best regards,
G.A.
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Capture One 10 & Hasselblad DNG: Controversy and Solution
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2017, 08:08:01 PM »

In short, C1 is really good software, that's why P1's strategy is so disappointing from the point of view of a photographer.

That's the issue, conflicting interests. Freedom of optimal tool choice versus longer term Return on Investment.

Perhaps the best thing that could happen for both sides, is that the Fuji GFX takes off like a Rocket and that Phase One also introduces a somewhat similar product (although differently priced to protect their 2-tier dealer distribution business model). That would make it more attractive to open up Capture One for selected other MF offerings.

Cheers,
Bart
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