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Author Topic: LL Tonedeafness  (Read 6411 times)

image66

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LL Tonedeafness
« on: January 09, 2017, 01:54:44 PM »

First of all, before I dive into the critical, I have to commend Kevin on his outstanding reportage of the Hasselblad saga. Hasselblad and Sears are both companies that just need forks stuck in them.

Now, for the criticism.

I'm highly disappointed (but sadly, not surprised) that we have published a press-release on the biggest photography industry news of the month, but not a peep about what must be determined here as the least-significant. That's right. We have an article on NEW PAINT for a Fuji X-T2, but not a whisper about Kodak Alaris reintroducing a formerly top-selling film stock before Kodak proceeded Hasselblad and Sears in death.

While I understand that Ektachrome 100 means absolutely nothing to somebody on a personal level who has a $25,000 digital back, it should mean something for this tremendous Internet resource. Luminous Landscape's silence on this matter (especially considering the top-center attention given to a change of paint color on a camera body) would have carried weight in the industry. There isn't even a snarky remark!

What I may surmise by this is that Luminous Landscape is no longer a meaningful Internet resource for photography, information or insight. This month, it became a shill for Fuji (they were the only one to get the press release published here) and a means for rich folks to compare their Phase One cameras and lenses and discuss the next great adventure to Antarctica, Iceland or somewhere else.

Even a snarky comment would have been something.

Ken N.
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Sharon VL

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2017, 02:27:03 PM »

You aren't serious, are you?

Rob C

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image66

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2017, 02:36:42 PM »

My apologies. It was mentioned by a forum member in Coffee Corner.

Ken
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LesPalenik

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2017, 02:38:17 PM »


While I understand that Ektachrome 100 means absolutely nothing to somebody on a personal level who has a $25,000 digital back, it should mean something for this tremendous Internet resource. Luminous Landscape's silence on this matter (especially considering the top-center attention given to a change of paint color on a camera body) would have carried weight in the industry. There isn't even a snarky remark!

Even a snarky comment would have been something.

Ken N.

Well, if you want a comment, I would say that Ektachrome 100 means even less to most shooters who use Canon Rebels or Nikon D3000 series. Even to many shooters who have kept their film bodies. Of more interest would be a list of labs still processing the films.
 
For a full disclosure, I still have some Kodak and Fuji rolls on the bottom of my freezer (both in 35mm and 220 formats). However, at this time, I'm not planning adding more film to my existing inventory.

John Hollenberg

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2017, 03:03:11 PM »

Quote
I have to commend Kevin on his outstanding reportage of the Hasselblad saga.

Quote
What I may surmise by this is that Luminous Landscape is no longer a meaningful Internet resource for photography, information or insight.

These two quotes were from the same poster in the same post???  I guess statement 2 logically follows from statement 1.
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Telecaster

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2017, 04:51:12 PM »

I still have five rolls of pre-demise 135 format Ektachrome 100, and two rolls of E-200 from 1999!, in my freezer. Being vintage it should be worth more than the new stuff, right?   :D

-Dave-
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Kevin Raber

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2017, 09:33:37 PM »

Well, I saw it buried somewhere about Ektachrome film being reintroduced.  So, how many people even have a film camera they can use it in?  The Fuji announcement came in response that we don't make product announcements when they happen.  I thought we'd start the year off being more responsive. We'll be trying harder to let everyone know as much new stuff as possible as well as being faster on reviews.  I am adding to the team and we'll announce more on that in the near future.
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Kevin Raber
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image66

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2017, 10:58:06 PM »

Thank you, Kevin, for your response.

I fully understand and appreciate what is possible, in regards to human resources, with Luminous Landscape. It doesn't make sense to try and compete with DPREVIEW and other similar sites that have seemingly no limits to publishing every press release that comes along. However, in this specific case, I do feel that there is a specific bigger picture aspect to this story that affects us all even though on an individual basis it may not be appear so directly.

To touch on the Hasselblad article for a moment, this is a big picture story that goes far beyond touching just those who own a Hasselblad camera today. I do not own any Hasselblad cameras, but see the ripples spread out across the pond. While you could have just sent an email to the several dozen friends of yours that own pretty much all of the Hasselblad digital cameras in the world today, you chose to not just write the article, but posted it on your own site too and NOT blocked it from non-subscribers. This is a huge story. Your opinion and insight mattered.

Likewise, the Kodak/KodakAlaris announcements are significant to the industry. The underlying story is that this is movie film stock that is driving the release of the film, not still photography. If it was just about hipsters carrying around old Kodak Retina 1As, this would never happen. So, there is a story going on in movie production that is worth considering. The cut 36-exposure rolls are a byproduct of that underlying story. This is also a signal that the bottom has been reached and no further cuts are to be expected at this time. The bounce is likely a "dead cat bounce", but we've reached a floor, for now, and the usage of film stock has stabilized. We are now in a "new normal".

Kodak has an extremely long history of "Kodak giveth, Kodak take away." I'm not going to bank my future on the continual availability of this film, but it is certainly refreshing to see something other than our echo-chamber "film is dead" news. Especially as this contrasts with the news of Hasselblad. While Kodak/KodakAlaris has evidently adjusted now to life and the long-term, Hasselblad will end up as nothing more than a set of patents for DJI to mine in the courts or sell as "Hasselblad Inside" in their other products.

Do I have an ox getting gored? Probably, in a way. That could be why I am upset at what I feel is misguided coverage that chases shiny new rabbits and overlooks the elephants. I do still shoot and process film (mostly B&W and Fujichromes) along with digital. For some things it is the better choice, for other things, certainly not. But I am able to do things with a $10-15 roll of film that may not necessarily be possible with digital or certainly not without significant investment, effort or logistical challenges. Options. THAT's what is important here. It serves the photography world no good if analog capture were to disappear. Granted, in order to use analog capture effectively, it takes a major rethink in the workflow. What used to be the workflow even five years ago is no longer the best workflow today.

In summary:
- Hasselblad Article, a larger story than first glance - published.
- X-T2 Article, an insignificant story - published.
- Kodak Ektachrome, a significant story about the industry, investments and trends - not published.

I'm asking that we avoid the echo chamber. The more we close ourselves into our tight little world of "the enlightened", the more reinforcement of that "enlightenment" we get and we fail to see that we're no longer relevant. If we ask ourselves "why would anybody shoot film today?", with the perspective of "I can't for the life of me, dream of going back to that nasty stuff", we don't get it. We're not asking the right question. The right question should be "what is it that those who are shooting film see in film that I can't?"

Again, this isn't just about film, pros/cons. That's a religion thing. My whole complaint really comes down to the fact that Luminous Landscape is becoming more insular and irrelevant when we're more about paint colors on camera bodies than we are about photography as a whole.

That's why I used the term "tonedeafness."

Ken N.
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David Anderson

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2017, 05:53:23 AM »

#filmisdead
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stamper

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2017, 07:15:12 AM »

#filmisdead

There is still a lot of misplaced nostalgia? :(

Rob C

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 07:58:09 AM »

There is still a lot of misplaced nostalgia? :(


Nostalgia is a matter of taste, of opinion, even of what it may be, exactly. Broad definitions, broadly speaking, suck!

If some commercial venture sees a way to satisfy a group of people without damaging anybody else's choices, I fail abysmally to understand why that may be either a misplaced call or anyone's error.

By extension, if your view (question) was valid in its presupposition, then that would, by definition, imply that anyone wishing to use film is crazy. I can assure you that last time I looked, very few bits of me were running crazy; admittedly a few were not running at all well, but those do not include my idea of freedom of harmless choice.

I have no idea if you have experienced life with a Hasselblad 500C or variant, but if you have, you would understand the beauty of the emotion. I do exclude the experience of a second-hand one, because by the time they became that way, they were usually worn out, and nothing lasts for ever, not even a 500C.

;-)

Rob

David Mantripp

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2017, 08:28:46 AM »

The fact that Kodak/Alaris appear to see a business case for Ektachrome, or even Kodachrome, and that a lot of money and dedicated effort is being poured into reviving Ferrari, with a new E6 stock as lead product, does tend to indicate that writing the interest in slide film, not just film, mind, is maybe driven by more than nostalgia.

Personally I find it very, very hard to match the satisfaction I get from Portra 400 / got from E100G with anything digital.  Yes, of course there are many caveats, many constraints, but at 100 ISO, and no time pressure, I'll take E100G over any digital camera I've ever used.  Even given that I have to scan it.

And I've had a bugger of a time trying to load a CMOS sensor into my XPan....

So, yes, I do think that maybe there's more of a story here than new paint jobs from Fuji.   I seem to recall Michael, of all people, had rediscovered film. Perhaps he might have been more interested...  (although imagining he would havre welcomed a return to slide film is, admittedly, a bit of a stretch)
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Kevin Raber

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2017, 09:42:04 AM »

Michael did re-discover film for a minute with a Rollei camera he invested heavy into.  He shot a few rolls.  Chris and I were with him.  He had fun.  Developed three rolls and then sold the camera.  No story ever was made on it.  He lost interest pretty quickly.  As you may remember that was Michael. He bounced around from one camera to another pretty quickly.  We featured his short trip into film on the Toy Shop Video . . . https://luminous-landscape.com/kevin-and-michaels-toy-shop-ii/

As a side note, Michael and I had a Nikkor Reel roll off where we took a couple of rolls of film and wound them onto Nikkor Reels (in the light). To make the story short, I think he was a sore loser.  I have loaded so many of those Nikkor reels I could do it my sleep.  One never forgets the pinch, insert, push and wind technique.  Now that was fun.
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Alan Smallbone

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2017, 10:43:48 AM »

I think there are lot of people that are way too critical of what LL posts and how they post it. It is their site, they can post what they want and how they want. If I don't like something I just move on and look at something else. I am more interested in Hasselblad and Fuji than the fact they are bringing back Ekatchrome or even possibly Kodachrome. Big whoop. I don't go on a piss and moan because I thought it should be front and center, which I hardly care about film any more and I still have some in the freezer.

I think Kevin and crew do a fantastic job, I also think they get a lot of undeserved criticism and often from people who have not been here long or do not participate much. Just my opinion.

Alan
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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2017, 10:48:21 AM »

I think there are lot of people that are way too critical of what LL posts and how they post it. It is their site, they can post what they want and how they want. If I don't like something I just move on and look at something else. I am more interested in Hasselblad and Fuji than the fact they are bringing back Ekatchrome or even possibly Kodachrome. Big whoop. I don't go on a piss and moan because I thought it should be front and center, which I hardly care about film any more and I still have some in the freezer.

I think Kevin and crew do a fantastic job, I also think they get a lot of undeserved criticism and often from people who have not been here long or do not participate much. Just my opinion.

+1 Well put.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 12:20:19 PM »

I think there are lot of people that are way too critical of what LL posts and how they post it. It is their site, they can post what they want and how they want. If I don't like something I just move on and look at something else. I am more interested in Hasselblad and Fuji than the fact they are bringing back Ekatchrome or even possibly Kodachrome. Big whoop. I don't go on a piss and moan because I thought it should be front and center, which I hardly care about film any more and I still have some in the freezer.

I think Kevin and crew do a fantastic job, I also think they get a lot of undeserved criticism and often from people who have not been here long or do not participate much. Just my opinion.

Alan
+2.
I totally agree.
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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 12:23:50 PM »

As a side note, Michael and I had a Nikkor Reel roll off where we took a couple of rolls of film and wound them onto Nikkor Reels (in the light). To make the story short, I think he was a sore loser.  I have loaded so many of those Nikkor reels I could do it my sleep.  One never forgets the pinch, insert, push and wind technique.  Now that was fun.
Kevin,
When i read this, I swear my hands started pinching, inserting, and winding as if I had a Nikkor reel in my hands right now, even though it's been a dozen years since the last time I did. Th trick to doing it in the light, of course, is to close your eyes so you can imagine you are in the darkroom.   ;D
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LesPalenik

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 01:14:15 PM »

I think there are lot of people that are way too critical of what LL posts and how they post it. It is their site, they can post what they want and how they want. If I don't like something I just move on and look at something else. I am more interested in Hasselblad and Fuji than the fact they are bringing back Ekatchrome or even possibly Kodachrome. Big whoop. I don't go on a piss and moan because I thought it should be front and center, which I hardly care about film any more and I still have some in the freezer.

I think Kevin and crew do a fantastic job, I also think they get a lot of undeserved criticism and often from people who have not been here long or do not participate much. Just my opinion.

Alan

+3. One more happy camper.
No point publishing the same press releases as on DP or Petapixel.

Rob C

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Re: LL Tonedeafness
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2017, 02:56:38 PM »

Kevin,
When i read this, I swear my hands started pinching, inserting, and winding as if I had a Nikkor reel in my hands right now, even though it's been a dozen years since the last time I did. Th trick to doing it in the light, of course, is to close your eyes so you can imagine you are in the darkroom.   ;D

I used Paterson's plastic reels all my years, apart from the time in a photo-unit where I used the stainless steel stuff they had before I turned up and, I'm sure, forever afterwards.

That's an amazing and unsung innovation Nikon had: I didn't know that you could load their tanks in daylight, just close your eyes and all would be well! You see the beauty of nature's own safelight: you eyelids? Wish I'd know so long ago...

;-)

Rob C

P.S. Kids, don't try this at home.
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