Update to Hogarty's Apology

[jjj]

If the people who manage the product and design the software listened more to those who use it, this would not have happened.

On the other hand - I recall an interesting discussion with John Nack a while back about ACR's deficiencies and he commented that maybe they listened a bit too much to the photographers at the time.
ACR and the concepts of digital photography in general were so new, people actually had no real idea what to do with it and tried to keep it like previous paradigms. Which later led to LR and Aperture being designed because the old methodologies were simply not working.

Generally speaking if you ask experienced people to change their workflow to a better one, almost all of them will moan. A lot.
I think LR's introduction was an exception because film was rapidly being replaced by digital and photographers desperately needed a new workflow for their new cameras.

[digitaldog]

John Nack would never have released LR6 this way! I say that as someone who's known every PM for Photoshop since 2.5 when I started 'beta' testing for that product. Under John, there would have been a means to access the legacy import, not cripple it.

[jjj]

Absolutely. I've said exactly that at some point during this farrago.
His moving to Google was a big loss for Adobe users.

[Rick Popham]

Absolutely. I've said exactly that at some point during this farrago.
His moving to Google was a big loss for Adobe users.

+ 10

[chez]

If the people who manage the product and design the software listened more to those who use it, this would not have happened.

Trouble is there are hundreds of thousands of users all with varying needs, wants and opinions. If we all could agree on a feature set...their task would be very easy...but that is not the case. You see, I'm not influenced by the changes to the import function one bit and I'd rather Adobe not spend time and resources to putting back functionality...but spend more time enhancing the soft proofing feature. I've heard people on this board to want Adobe to focus more on the slideshow abilities which I have zero interest in.

Now WHO should Adobe listen to...you or me?

[digitaldog]

Now WHO should Adobe listen to...you or me?

I was specifically referring to the pre-release (beta) testers. Adobe should have listened to them.

[ButchM]

Trouble is there are hundreds of thousands of users all with varying needs, wants and opinions. If we all could agree on a feature set...their task would be very easy...but that is not the case. You see, I'm not influenced by the changes to the import function one bit and I'd rather Adobe not spend time and resources to putting back functionality...but spend more time enhancing the soft proofing feature. I've heard people on this board to want Adobe to focus more on the slideshow abilities which I have zero interest in.

Now WHO should Adobe listen to...you or me?

Perhaps if Adobe had shown a bit more wisdom and actually listened to some of there longtime beta testers ... so much effort and resources would not have been wasted on this latest fiasco and those same efforts could have been applied to your desires for Lightroom.

Apparently they aren't listening to you about how unimportant the lost features are in the Import dialog due to the unprecedented response of over 780 votes on feedback.photoshop.com and over 1,200 comments on the Lr Journal Blog, overwhelmingly in support of returning functionality that was arbitrarily removed. I think Hogarty does indeed know exactly who he should be listening to.

Secondly, if a multi-billion dollar worldwide interest such as Adobe chooses to offer a software solution to such a wide user base ... knowing full well doing so will also bring a much wider pool of goals and desires ... they also should be willing to allocate a reasonable amount of resources to the maintenance and development of that solution. That is the price large companies must pay if they wish to serve such a diverse audience. If they are not earning a large enough monetary return on that effort, perhaps they are in the wrong line of work.

Perhaps Shantanu Narayen could cut his bonus by a million dollars or so and they could allocate that cash for the Lr team to hire another engineer or two if resources are so tight.

[Schewe]

Perhaps Shantanu Narayen could cut his bonus by a million dollars or so and they could allocate that cash for the Lr team to hire another engineer or two if resources are so tight.

Ya know, you had me agreeing until the point you decided to get mean and snarky...what Shantanu does or doesn't do should have no bearing on LR's development. You know that, right? So, you were just being mean and snarky, right? Less of that would be useful...

[chez]

Perhaps if Adobe had shown a bit more wisdom and actually listened to some of there longtime beta testers ... so much effort and resources would not have been wasted on this latest fiasco and those same efforts could have been applied to your desires for Lightroom.

Apparently they aren't listening to you about how unimportant the lost features are in the Import dialog due to the unprecedented response of over 780 votes on feedback.photoshop.com and over 1,200 comments on the Lr Journal Blog, overwhelmingly in support of returning functionality that was arbitrarily removed. I think Hogarty does indeed know exactly who he should be listening to.

Secondly, if a multi-billion dollar worldwide interest such as Adobe chooses to offer a software solution to such a wide user base ... knowing full well doing so will also bring a much wider pool of goals and desires ... they also should be willing to allocate a reasonable amount of resources to the maintenance and development of that solution. That is the price large companies must pay if they wish to serve such a diverse audience. If they are not earning a large enough monetary return on that effort, perhaps they are in the wrong line of work.

Perhaps Shantanu Narayen could cut his bonus by a million dollars or so and they could allocate that cash for the Lr team to hire another engineer or two if resources are so tight.

Firstly Butch, you have no idea how many resources are involved with LR. Secondly, your ignorance on software development rears it's head again when you think you can improve the quality of the product or speed up feature development by throwing more resources at it.

Best you stick to photography rather than thinking you know more about how to manage something huge like Adobe products than the people running those products.

[ButchM]

Ya know, you had me agreeing until the point you decided to get mean and snarky...what Shantanu does or doesn't do should have no bearing on LR's development. You know that, right? So, you were just being mean and snarky, right? Less of that would be useful...

No sir. I was not trying to be snarky or mean ... Simply pointing out that Adobe has resources if they choose to apply them. I realize they don't have unlimited resources, but neither should there be undue hardships for offering a well-rounded approach.

[ButchM]

Firstly Butch, you have no idea how many resources are involved with LR. Secondly, your ignorance on software development rears it's head again when you think you can improve the quality of the product or speed up feature development by throwing more resources at it.

Best you stick to photography rather than thinking you know more about how to manage something huge like Adobe products than the people running those products.

Funny, you always seem to have an opinion on anything I may offer ... On any subject matter ... And you do so without pre-qualifying your contributions ... But any opinion or observation I may offer is not worthy of consideration because you have deemed I lack the insight and qualifications to form an opinion?

While I fully accept that software development does indeed have certain nuances and challenges I may not have experienced, but the business of developing, marketing and selling ANY product has many similarities and basic rules for success that do not cease to exist just because one may not understand the full complexities and problems encountered when producing a particular product.

These general truths are quite evident if you scrutinize history and recognize how many successful business people have been able to achieve great accomplishments across multiple product types and genres in varied and complex markets.

As someone who has been self-employed for over 40 years and have done well for my family, I hope you don't mind that I will not yield to your attempts to silence my views. Your are certainly welcome to disagree with my premise. Though I refuse to be cowed into silence simply because you feel I am unworthy to express my thoughts.

If you wish to convince me you have a superior intellect on such topics, impress me with your knowledge and communications skills ... Don't waste your precious time attempting to bully me into silence simply because you have nothing of value to offer other than to disagree with anything I may say.

[jeremyrh]

Trouble is there are hundreds of thousands of users all with varying needs, wants and opinions.

I'm willing to bet that very few of them include "constant crashing" or "hanging and requiring a Force Quit" on their list of must-haves.

[jjj]

As someone who has been self-employed for over 40 years and have done well for my family, I hope you don't mind that I will not yield to your attempts to silence my views. Your are certainly welcome to disagree with my premise. Though I refuse to be cowed into silence simply because you feel I am unworthy to express my thoughts.

You may have some useful thoughts indeed, but you also seem to be equating experience of being self employed with being knowledgeable of the ins and out of running a multinational company. It a bit like an embroidery expert telling a surgeon how to do their job as sewing is involved in both jobs. 

[chez]

Funny, you always seem to have an opinion on anything I may offer ... On any subject matter ... And you do so without pre-qualifying your contributions ... But any opinion or observation I may offer is not worthy of consideration because you have deemed I lack the insight and qualifications to form an opinion?

While I fully accept that software development does indeed have certain nuances and challenges I may not have experienced, but the business of developing, marketing and selling ANY product has many similarities and basic rules for success that do not cease to exist just because one may not understand the full complexities and problems encountered when producing a particular product.

These general truths are quite evident if you scrutinize history and recognize how many successful business people have been able to achieve great accomplishments across multiple product types and genres in varied and complex markets.

As someone who has been self-employed for over 40 years and have done well for my family, I hope you don't mind that I will not yield to your attempts to silence my views. Your are certainly welcome to disagree with my premise. Though I refuse to be cowed into silence simply because you feel I am unworthy to express my thoughts.

If you wish to convince me you have a superior intellect on such topics, impress me with your knowledge and communications skills ... Don't waste your precious time attempting to bully me into silence simply because you have nothing of value to offer other than to disagree with anything I may say.

Butch, I'm not trying to silence you...but your rants about Adobe...especially when you bring your ignorance about software into the realm, are just inaccurate and need to be challenged. Having 40 years...you have been saying this for over a year one so adjust to 41 years..., has zero to do with how soaftware is developed and managed. Your naive view of just adding more resources would accelerate LR and release it with better stability is just not true.

Would adding more painters enable a portrait to be painted faster and the result better?

[chez]

I'm willing to bet that very few of them include "constant crashing" or "hanging and requiring a Force Quit" on their list of must-haves.

Really...and I bet many of those people that purchased automobiles with faulty air bags requested that feature...or the people who purchased original 5d asked that the mirror would spontaneously eject out of the camera.

SH*t happens everywhere...even I'm sure in your backyard.

[ButchM]

You may have some useful thoughts indeed, but you also seem to be equating experience of being self employed with being knowledgeable of the ins and out of running a multinational company. It a bit like an embroidery expert telling a surgeon how to do their job as sewing is involved in both jobs. 

No, that's an incorrect assertion. If one must be directly experienced and knowledgeable of the ins and out of software development by multi-billion dollar, multinational company in order to have an understanding, that's a pretty high bar. By that standard, I'm pretty sure there extremely few people participating on this forum that meet that qualification to express an opinion.

I was pointing out, that my life experience offers me some insight in to such matter even though that experience may not be an all-inclusive direct knowledge of the situation. Besides, chez already is well aware that I have admitted I am not an expert on such topics, yet he spares no expense to or effort in pointing out how naive and ignorant ... yet he seems to place no limitations on his own opinions that may be outside his wheel house. A very noticeable double standard, if you will.

Secondly ... While it may be out of place for an 'embroidery' expert' to offer unsolicited advice to an experienced surgeon on how to sew ... I don't think one must be an expert at sewing or surgery to have an opinion if either miss a stitch.

[jjj]

No, that's an incorrect assertion. If one must be directly experienced and knowledgeable of the ins and out of software development by multi-billion dollar, multinational company in order to have an understanding, that's a pretty high bar. By that standard, I'm pretty sure there extremely few people participating on this forum that meet that qualification to express an opinion.

Not saying you have to be directly involved. But claiming that running your own photography business means you know how to allocate resources in an area incredibly different is a claim too far.

I was pointing out, that my life experience offers me some insight in to such matter even though that experience may not be an all-inclusive direct knowledge of the situation. Besides, chez already is well aware that I have admitted I am not an expert on such topics, yet he spares no expense to or effort in pointing out how naive and ignorant ... yet he seems to place no limitations on his own opinions that may be outside his wheel house. A very noticeable double standard, if you will.

I blocked Chez a long time back. I have no issue with people having alternative opinions to myself as it can be enlightning, but some posters.....

Secondly ... While it may be out of place for an 'embroidery' expert' to offer unsolicited advice to an experienced surgeon on how to sew ... I don't think one must be an expert at sewing or surgery to have an opinion if either miss a stitch.

Certainly true.

[ButchM]

Not saying you have to be directly involved. But claiming that running your own photography business means you know how to allocate resources in an area incredibly different is a claim too far.

I never made such a claim ... I merely pointed out I am allowed to have an opinion and I base that opinion on my life experience ... there is a difference.

[ButchM]

Butch, I'm not trying to silence you...but your rants about Adobe...especially when you bring your ignorance about software into the realm, are just inaccurate and need to be challenged. Having 40 years...you have been saying this for over a year one so adjust to 41 years..., has zero to do with how soaftware is developed and managed. 

So .. what is more important to you ... the anniversary date of when I started in business or the pleasure you seem to take in pointing out I am too naive or ignorant to be allowed to express an opinion?

...Your naive view of just adding more resources would accelerate LR and release it with better stability is just not true. ... Would adding more painters enable a portrait to be painted faster and the result better?

Once again, I'm not sure you read as carefully as you should. How about we perform a small review ...

In your first comment of this thread, you intimated that Adobe had limitations on who they may 'listen' to ... that somehow they were incapable of maintenance and improvements to multiple modules/feature sets simultaneously. Like it may be difficult for them to handle your concerns as well as the slideshow module for which you have no desire to see improved at all. You questioned who they should listen to. I am of the opinion they have the resources to address most if not all concerns. While I fully accept not very user will receive everything they request in the time frame they expect, there can be a balanced approach.

I merely pointed out, that Adobe has the resources to apply a well-rounded approach to ALL the modules if they choose. There is no reason that the Slideshow module should be ignored while improvements are made to other aspects of the application. I understand that resources are not limitless, but I also don't think they are as constrained as some would like us to accept.

I am of the opinion that Lightroom is not a singular application or 'portrait,' if you will ... while multiple artists would certainly conflict if they were working on the same small canvas ... it is quite possible for multiple artists to work on separate canvases (i.e. modules) simultaneously without causing too much conflict. That way you may get some improvements to your favorite aspects of Lightroom and the Slideshow module does not have to take a back seat in order to satisfy your concerns.

Instead of detailing why you may disagree with that premise, you choose to focus solely on pointing out why I am not qualified to express an opinion.  Curious, that.

[chez]

So .. what is more important to you ... the anniversary date of when I started in business or the pleasure you seem to take in pointing out I am too naive or ignorant to be allowed to express an opinion?

Once again, I'm not sure you read as carefully as you should. How about we perform a small review ...

In your first comment of this thread, you intimated that Adobe had limitations on who they may 'listen' to ... that somehow they were incapable of maintenance and improvements to multiple modules/feature sets simultaneously. Like it may be difficult for them to handle your concerns as well as the slideshow module for which you have no desire to see improved at all. You questioned who they should listen to. I am of the opinion they have the resources to address most if not all concerns. While I fully accept not very user will receive everything they request in the time frame they expect, there can be a balanced approach.

I merely pointed out, that Adobe has the resources to apply a well-rounded approach to ALL the modules if they choose. There is no reason that the Slideshow module should be ignored while improvements are made to other aspects of the application. I understand that resources are not limitless, but I also don't think they are as constrained as some would like us to accept.

I am of the opinion that Lightroom is not a singular application or 'portrait,' if you will ... while multiple artists would certainly conflict if they were working on the same small canvas ... it is quite possible for multiple artists to work on separate canvases (i.e. modules) simultaneously without causing too much conflict. That way you may get some improvements to your favorite aspects of Lightroom and the Slideshow module does not have to take a back seat in order to satisfy your concerns.

Instead of detailing why you may disagree with that premise, you choose to focus solely on pointing out why I am not qualified to express an opinion.  Curious, that.

Butch obviously everyone can have an opinion...its that some come from ignorance while others come from experience. Which would you rather listen to?