Profiling Printer for Black and White Prints

[Michael Z]

I'm getting my printer to be custom profiled by a printer company for me, so I'm sending a print of their colour target and black and white target.

I'm getting the Canson Infinity Platine profiled on my Epson 3880 with K3 inks.
I printed out the colour target with success, which isn't the problem. The odd thing that happened, was when I printed out their black and white target through Quadtone RIP, it came out in colour, despite the target being in black and white!

So I'm completely confused how a black and white target can print out in colour.
The curve I used was "3880-CAR-CANplatFiberRag". Did I use the wrong curve? I made the assumption that 'CAR' was short for 'carbon' which was a neutral curve, but I have no idea what it really stands for.

The only curve I could find for Canson Platine for the 3880 was "3880-CAR-CANplatFiberRag".
If I used the wrong curve, what curve do I use for a 3880 on Canson Platine for a neutral black and white print to be profiled?

Thanks

[Jager]

The curve you used is for Jon Cone's Piezography K7 inksets (all black inks).  They have nothing to do with Epson's OEM K3 inkset.

Did the company making the profiles for you not give you instructions on what to use?  I would think you would use the profile from Canson's website.

[Michael Z]

That would explain why it printed out in colour then.

They do have instructions on their website on how to print out their target with Quadtone RIP:
http://www.imagescience.com.au/pages/Profile-Service-Instructions.html

If you have a look under "Detailed Instructions - Black and White Profile Service" tab.

They don't tell you what curve that best matches Canson's Platine paper in QTRIP however, which is where I'm struggling.

[Paul Roark]

QTR and its profiling is totally different than the "color managed" systems most profiling companies are going to be familiar with.  Go to https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/QuadtoneRIP/conversations/messages for help.

The QTR writer uses a 3800 with OEM inks and baryta paper.  There will be profiles close enough to be re-linearized.

There is no automated profiling for QTR as far as I know.  You basically "partition" the gray inks to form a core (that process is semi-automated), then the magenta and cyan channels (yellow & magenta for warm) are manually adjusted to get the color you want.  My brief description of the process starts at page 11 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-4-Plus.pdf (ignore the dedicated B&W inkset, the process is essentially the same for K3).

Good luck.  QTR is the way to go, so you're on the right track.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Paul Roark]

There is a profile in the 3800 QTR profiles folder for H. Photo Rag.  That might be the closest to the paper you're looking at.

(I'm just starting to look at setting up the 3880 with a dedicated B&W inkset.  So, I'm looking at that printer at the moment.  I'm on Windows, but the profiles work on both platforms.)

If your profiles folder does not have the HPR profile, just download http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/3880.zip .  It's in there along with a file that makes it easy to find your ink limit, which will be different than HPR.  There is also a screen grab of what the HPR profile looks like when graphed.  You might find it interesting.

What I do to find the K ink limit fast is print a 21-step test file (http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/21-Step.zip) with the profile  K-0-100 (in 3800.zip).  See the QTR settings in the screen grab.  (If you're on Mac, you'll have a different workflow.)  When the test strip patches stop getting continuously darker, that's the limit.  If its more than the limit in the HPR profile, use the HPR's number and use the limit you just found as the Black Boost.  The midtone limits can be left where they are.  Clear the linearization.

See how the profile, modified to clear the HPR linearization and with an appropriate K ink limit works.  This is probably too much information for now, but trying to get a handle on it all will help you get down the QTR learning curve.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Jeff-Grant]

Michael,

What Image Science will provide you is a soft proof profile, nothing more. To use QTR, you need to create the curve or find one that works on your printer. You may trust your eyes, but I don't and so use a spectro to confirm linearity. Have you read the QTR manual by Amadou Diallo? It's on the QTR site: QTR Workflow by Amadou Diallo.

Bottom line with QTR is that a soft proofing profile is useless unless you are printing the target with the right QTR curve.

[Michael Z]

Thanks for the help everyone.

I found this guide on the Yahoo GTR-QuadTone RIP group:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/QuadtoneRIP/conversations/topics/10551?reverse=1

A QTR user was nice enough to create the person a "UCpk-Canson-Platine-Fiber-Rag-Neutral.txt" file.
I've been trying to follow the instructions found on the wiki here:
"http://digi.stedwards.edu/wiki/index.php/Create_QuadTone_RIP_Curve#Create_the_New_Curve"

Based upon the Yahoo group discussion, I believe I'm at the point where I need Install the new curve.
The wiki states:

"Locate the Install####.command file
This file is located in every folder for which there is an installer for QuadTone RIP. This folder is dependent on the model of printer you are creating a curve for.
Applications/QuadToneRIP/Profiles/####-UC/Install####.command
Double click the Install####.command file to run the installation command in Terminal. This will install any curves that have been added to the folder to the existing printer as well any changes you have made to the .txt files.
You will have to restart the QTR-Print-Tool after you run this command for the new Curve to be available in the QTR print driver."

I've gone through my QuadToneRIP installation directory on my computer (I'm using Windows 7).
For the life of me I can't seem to locate the "Install####.command" file. Since I'm using an Epson 3880, I'm under the assumption that the .command file I should be looking for is called, "Install3880.command".

I've looked in all the folders within the, "Computer/Local Disk (C:)/Program Files (x86)/QuadToneRIP".
How do I install the "UCpk-Canson-Platine-Fiber-Rag-Neutral.txt" if I don't have the "Install3880.command"?

[Jeff-Grant]

Michael,

Those look like Mac instructions to me.

[Michael Z]

Ah that would explain it then.
How does a Windows 7 user go about installing the .txt file?

[RHPS]

It's not at all obvious to me why you are printing the B&W target through QTR. QTR doesn't use a "normal" colour managed workflow so you don't use profiles in QTR. As has been pointed out it will only give you a profile useful for soft-proofing, and then only for printing through QTR. Unless I've missed something, the instructions for printing the targets show the use of ABW mode. This makes a lot more sense, because on the Windows platform you can use profiles when printing through ABW so the profile can linearise the ABW output.

Have I missed the point somewhere?

[TylerB]

there are about 14 cans of worms opened here in this thread by now...
Quadtne RIP and QTR Print Tool are two entirely different applications, just for starters.. QTR Print Tool is totally appropriate for printing icc profile charts color OR B&W because it is one of the only applications that let's the user print with NO COLOR MANAGEMENT. It's indispensable for me, and reliable.
Quadtone RIP on the other hand is a B&W printer driver... and "profiles" which are actually ink setup/linearization files are exactly what are used for that driver.
I would look at the support materials for how to install it on a PC, or ask here-
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/QuadtoneRIP/info

[Paul Roark]

You'll find in dealing with QTR that you need to specify Mac or Windows at the outset because approaches are different, although the profiles are compatible between the two.

Windows users will find it very handy to make a shortcut on their Desktops to this hidden folder:

"C:\Users\(computer user name)\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files (x86)\QuadToneRIP"

For security reasons, while the original *.qidf and *.quad files are under the more accessible C:\Program Files (x86)\QuadToneRip, the ones you will make are in the a separate folder (the AppData path, above), and it can be hard to find.

If someone sends you a QTR profile, it should have an extention of *.qidf and be simply copied to the subfolder in the path noted above, but with the addition of (printer type)\Profiles.

You then open that in the Curve Creator and from there open the new profile and save it.  That generates the*.quad file that the rip actually uses.  To save the profile, you might want to push the "Show Curve" button on the Curve Creator.  I think it helps get down the learning curve to see what the profile "looks" like.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[richardboutwell]

Ah that would explain it then.
How does a Windows 7 user go about installing the .txt file?

Like Tyler said, 14 cans of worms.

Printing through QTR with a set of QTR curves can be thought of as printing with extremely accurate media settings for a given paper, printer, and ink set (as long as the QTRprofile/curves were accurately made). You can create ICC Profiles to softproof how these QTR media settings will print and apply the icc profile as you would with standard color printing (but not on windows...)

If you have an ink descriptor file saved as .txt you can simply change the extension from .txt to .qidf and then open the in the curve creation module of the windows QTRgui. When you hit "show curve" the curve generation script (the install script in the Mac) creates the .quad file used for printing and places it in the correct folder. Although, if there are any lines in the text file the QTRgui doesn't like it will fail where a Mac might run through it with no problem.

These text-based ink descriptor files are not simple parameters, but detailed instructions on how the curve generation script creates the overlapping ink curves in the .quad file. Sloppy inputs make for sloppy curves, so be cautious about where you get your profiles, and test them with some smooth gradients and the bulls eye targets included in the QTR download.

I am literally writing the book on QTR, and this week I am sorting out how to best go about doing this converting to/embedding the custom ICC Profile when printing with the QTRgui. I've been a Mac user forever, and it makes life with QTR much easier, but I understand people don't always have that option. Though If you are serious about using QTR, you might consider getting a used Mac Mini or used Mac laptop and print through that. You will be able to print with 16-bit throughput, print straight through photoshop, and, if using print tool, you have more flexibility of image layout and use of a simplified color-managed workflow (and you wont need to deal with the aesthetically-challenged QTRgui)

[Ernst Dinkla]

Printing through QTR with a set of QTR curves can be thought of as printing with extremely accurate media settings for a given paper, printer, and ink set (as long as the QTRprofile/curves were accurately made). You can create ICC Profiles to softproof how these QTR media settings will print and apply the icc profile as you would with standard color printing (but not on windows...)

If you have an ink descriptor file saved as .txt you can simply change the extension from .txt to .qidf and then open the in the curve creation module of the windows QTRgui. When you hit "show curve" the curve generation script (the install script in the Mac) creates the .quad file used for printing and places it in the correct folder. Although, if there are any lines in the text file the QTRgui doesn't like it will fail where a Mac might run through it with no problem.

These text-based ink descriptor files are not simple parameters, but detailed instructions on how the curve generation script creates the overlapping ink curves in the .quad file. Sloppy inputs make for sloppy curves, so be cautious about where you get your profiles, and test them with some smooth gradients and the bulls eye targets included in the QTR download.

I am literally writing the book on QTR, and this week I am sorting out how to best go about doing this converting to/embedding the custom ICC Profile when printing with the QTRgui. I've been a Mac user forever, and it makes life with QTR much easier, but I understand people don't always have that option. Though If you are serious about using QTR, you might consider getting a used Mac Mini or used Mac laptop and print through that. You will be able to print with 16-bit throughput, print straight through photoshop, and, if using print tool, you have more flexibility of image layout and use of a simplified color-managed workflow (and you wont need to deal with the aesthetically-challenged QTRgui)

Before you write the book it may be wise to reduce the number of worms added in your message.

With QTR + Windows it is still possible to use QTR created B&W ICC profiles. Any application with a color engine that can do a color management P2P (profile to profile conversion) can apply that QTR B&W ICC profile to the image. Soft proofing is usable as well. Save the image with the QTR B&W ICC printer profile assigned (to avoid mistakes) and print it through QTRgui on Windows. QTRgui does not do anything with the assigned B&W ICC profile but gets already converted image data this way. Photoshop is reliable with both the Greyscale and RGB variations of the QTR B&W ICC created profiles. Some applications are more reliable with the RGB type. Quite often I have asked for a Windows driver version of QTR. That would make this workflow more elegant and would allow straight printing from Qimage Ultimate too + its added features not found anywhere else. On my request at least a hot folder system was added in the past to QTRgui that would pick up the converted image (+ Qimage's upsampling quality, sharpening, nesting, etc) right away and print it through QTR. It required synchronising the QTR B&W ICC profile in QU to the QTRgui settings and paper used but it worked. The nice thing about QU + Windows was that it kept the no color management setting usable for target printing throughout the lifetime of QTR, something that was not the case with both Macs and with Adobe products.

If QTR created B&W ICC profiles are used with OEM inks, possible on Epson, HPs and (probably) Canons, the workflow becomes easier. For ABW driver B&W modes available in the drivers of the three printer brands.

I probably do not have to tell you that Qimage Ultimate does not run natively on a Mac :-)


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

Message modified 25-4-2015 to reduce the confusion and stay on topic. Clipped parts appear in another thread.

[richardboutwell]

Ernst, thanks for adding a few more cans by bringing HP printers and Qimage into the mix. I am not sure what was unclear about by last post, and I thought was obviously addressing printing through QTR exclusively.

I've said this other places, but the generic use of "profile" when talking about QTR is one of the biggest factors confusing new users, which is exactly how this thread started. The book i'm writing deals very little with color management, and focuses on the QTR profile/curve creation process for both OEM and customized dedicated black and white ink sets, but one of the main goals of the book is clearing up some of the ambiguous terminology and common misconceptions that have people hung up.

Like you said, you can do all the things you mention with an ICC profile for different brand printers and with CMS aware programs, but you overlooked one of the main points I was trying to make. The benefit of using QTR is creating custom media settings for specific papers and ink sets (generally referred to as QTR Curves or QTR Profiles), and, as is the case with creating ICC profiles with the epson driver (or any other printer), you need to use those media settings to correctly create and implement the ICC Profile specific to that QTR Profile. The ability to make these Custom Media Settings is what makes QTR so great, and is something Qimage does not allow you to do (correct?). The only other program I know that does everything you are asking for in the QTRGui is StudioPrint, and it will set you back about $2000 (and is still limited to Windows...). The point about printing with QTR on a Mac is that it allows for more options than currently available in the QTRgui on Windows. Yes, it would be nice if the QTRgui would be updated, but how much can be expected from a shareware product with limited support?

[Ernst Dinkla]

Richard, you wrote:

>>You can create ICC Profiles to softproof how these QTR media settings will print and apply the icc profile as you would with standard color printing (but not on windows...)<<

Yes, you can in Windows with several applications but printing has to be done through QTRgui though if you want to use that driver. With the corresponding partitioning curves + paper of course. It is not that different on the Mac but on the Mac you can print with the QTR driver from the same application that does the CM.

I was not referring to partitioning files/curves or media presets used in QTRgui, you were neither as you wrote "ICC Profiles to softproof". I do not think think it is wise to call the partitioning curves etc "profiles". Media presets - paper presets - ink partitioning presets - would explain their function better. The same terms are used with other driver systems that separate the RGB-device printer color management profiles from the underlying media presets. In CMYK color management the two are bundled so can not be separately addressed.

The other comments I added because I wonder whether the OP is not more served by a solution that uses the 3880 with Epson ABW mode + a custom ICC B&W profile for that route. That can still be a QTR created ICC profile but is the source he uses for the profile creation aware of the methods to get there?


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[RHPS]

The other comments I added because I wonder whether the OP is not more served by a solution that uses the 3880 with Epson ABW mode + a custom ICC B&W profile for that route. That can still be a QTR created ICC profile but is the source he uses for the profile creation aware of the methods to get there?

That's the point I was gettng at in my earlier post. The company that the OP is using to make his B&W profile gives instructions for printing the target in ABW, not QTR. It seems to me that printing the target in QTR using a curve that is not optimised/linearised for the media in question is missing the point. All you get is a description of the un-linearised behaviour of the printer when printing with QTR. Is that really useful? Or am I still missing something?

[TylerB]

if he is printing with ABW.. wants an icc profile for ABW, and has been instructed to print the profile chart by the profile provider using ABW... QTR has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. Nothing. Nada. That should clear up the vast majority of confusing references in this thread.

If he IS using QTR and wants a profile for that.. it's a whole new sloppy ball game, and I doubt very much the profile maker/provider is even offering this.. it's a niche process most of them are not familiar with, requiring an app PROVIDED WITH QTR.. but is NOT QTR. Utilizing software normally used for making icc color profiles is not relevant, again, it's a niche process. Though some on this list are knowledgeable about it.
It's also unrelated to linearizing a QTR "profile" (an inkset/paper setup linearization file having nothing to do with icc profiles).. which, when well done, requires no ICC profile at all to make perfectly good and linear prints.
Sorry about the caps. that kind of day.

[Ferp]

I think a major source of confusion is that the OP hasn't indicated how he is intending to print, and the instructions from that company are not clear.  The opening line of their instructions states "These profiles allow you to soft proof for specialist printing modes for black and white such as Epson's Advanced Black and White mode, or printing through QuadtoneRIP."   Which makes it fairly clear that they're creating ICC profiles and not QTR curves.  But the seventh dot point is less clear, mentioning only ABW: "Choose your printer's black and white printing mode, such as 'Advanced Black and White' ".  The key words here are "such as".  They are not saying you must use ABW.  I think that this could have been expressed less ambiguously.

I think RHPH did miss something.  I don't know what software they are using to create these ICC profiles, but you could use the QTR profile creation programs to create a soft proof profile for either ABW or QTR.  If you're proposing to print through QTR, then you use QTR to print the standard QTR 21x4, which is in effect what that company is telling you to print, scan it, and drop the results on QTR-create-ICC.  But you could do the exact same thing for ABW - print the 21x4 using ABW, scan and drop and you have and ICC for ABW.  You could use the 21x4 and QTR-create-ICC to create an ICC for anything.

Which I think is what Ernst was trying to say.

 

[Jeff-Grant]

I can tell you that the OP is planning on using QTR, and that I am making a curve and softproof profile for him. That will get him started and he can wrestle with it from there.