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Author Topic: Precise Digital Exposure  (Read 30822 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2015, 06:25:24 pm »

I don't think this is correct or a useful analogy.
With film 'development' was a process that could be manipulated to change the characteristics of the latent image, but on a 'once only' basis after exposure(capture).
Isn’t that the same in the raw converter? If I use ETTR, the initial (default) rendering/development looks too light. Using Michael’s term, I ‘normalize’ the using various sliders.
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In a digital system, there's little other than choosing an ISO setting that can change the characteristics of the medium once you've chosen the camera(sensor) to use.
Agreed.
Rendering is still part of the process to ‘develop’ the image as we desire.
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People refer to converting raw files as 'development' or rendering, but really the process is more akin to printing in analogue terms
I suppose one could look at it that way.
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I just fail to understand why people still bother with such out dated concepts as the zone system.
We are in violent agreement!
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2015, 08:01:25 pm »

I just fail to understand why people still bother with such out dated concepts as the zone system. It was designed in the days when taking multi different exposures was impossible/time consuming/expensive, when there were post exposure possibilities that needed consideration and there was no immediate feedback of results. That just isn't the case now, you can cover all exposure variables in a swift bracketed burst that leaves far more options at negligible/no cost.

And this can be extended to any metering system or exposure trick such as the bracketing you suggest. Modern cameras display a pre-visualization (wasn't that concept so important to Ansel Adams?) of the scene on the EVF that makes metering or bracketing a waste of time and resources. Since I entered the CSC world I got rid of all those things with which I never managed to sympathise when using Canon DSLR's. Now I don't even look at the histogram since the highlight clipping and shadow underexposure warnings are far more powerful tools, providing accurate spatial information. Just need to adjust the exposure like in a RAW developer until I get an image to my liking, and take the picture (only one picture).

I wouldn't use this...


if I can choose this...


Regards!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 08:14:00 pm by Guillermo Luijk »
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AlterEgo

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2015, 10:07:34 pm »

I've found that ETTR techniques usually result in subtle and undesirable color shifts in the finished result. I'd rather have better colors and tonalities and a bit more noise.
ETTR or ETTR and your raw converter + whatever "camera profile" you are using... granted you can ETTR things to where raw data will not be linear, but I don't think you are talking about such highlights
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AlterEgo

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2015, 10:15:54 pm »

And two years before that, in 2007, I developed a piece of software to calculate and plot the Zone System of a scene from a linear image of it (it can be applied to RAW data if used properly):

LightZone was doing that in 2006 in raw converter (well it was not a raw converter technically speaking - see further about dcraw) if I am not mistaken... and as it was using dcraw as a program (calling compiled executable) you could modify the input as you wish... no ?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 10:17:56 pm by AlterEgo »
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AlterEgo

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2015, 10:19:43 pm »

I assume due settings/processing in Capture One.
try linear scientific curve from C1 CH edition.
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bernie west

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2015, 11:40:22 pm »

@Guillermo... "CSC world" - what's that?

ETA: Also, can anyone recommend any good online resource regarding camera profiles with Lightroom?  Every now and then I revisit some of my old canon 5D raws and I'm nowhere near as happy with the LR 'default' camera profile settings for the 5D as I am for my Nikon.  Notwithstanding the less than desirable colour relationships when modifying images, I also had trouble with extreme ETTR 'normalisation' in LR - particularly in the highlights.  I also have a fuji x100, and the highlight recovery on 'default' settings in LR with it are not very good.  You can get large grey sections of rebuilt highlights with abrupt transitions to normally rendered colour.  I'm not so worried about that with the fuji, as I only temporarily bought it for street work in India and will be selling it soon anyway.  Also, colour accuracy in extreme highlights wasn't really my primary concern while shooting street.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 11:47:43 pm by bernie west »
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AlterEgo

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2015, 12:01:51 am »

"CSC world" - what's that?

it is the improper name for dSLMs (because they don't have to be compact)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 12:03:33 am by AlterEgo »
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bernie west

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2015, 12:05:51 am »

Oh, he's one of them...  :P
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AlterEgo

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2015, 12:06:38 am »

ETA: Also, can anyone recommend any good online resource regarding camera profiles with Lightroom?

google is by far the best one - you can search for things like : madmanchan, eric chan, sandymc, vitnovak... then you get an idea

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bernie west

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2015, 12:33:30 am »

Cheers for that!  I'm just checking his site out now.  I remember that name (madmanchan), I think from a lot of the technical threads here back in the old days.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2015, 12:59:49 am »

Cheers for that!  I'm just checking his site out now.  
actually you need to read his postings in various forums, his site is of a lesser value for your purpose of reading about dcp related technicalities - if you are talking abour mr. Chan.
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bernie west

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2015, 01:09:39 am »

Yeah, his site doesn't actually have anything about LR camera profiles.

I'm more after a condensed resource on the topic.  I don't really have time to chase down individual posts by people all over the internet.  I'm hoping someone has put together a resource on this.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 03:01:30 am by bernie west »
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Rhossydd

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2015, 03:44:35 am »

Isn’t that the same in the raw converter?
No. RAW converters work non destructively, the original data never changes.
Film development was a variable process that could alter what was captured after exposure on a once only basis (OK, in theory for the pedants, you could use reducers and intensifiers to further modify developed film, but that only had a limited range of effect and degraded the image to an extent). The end result, a negative or positive, was a final locked set of information to print from.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 10:12:36 am by Rhossydd »
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Rhossydd

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2015, 03:50:09 am »

Modern cameras display a pre-visualization (wasn't that concept so important to Ansel Adams?) of the scene on the EVF that makes metering or bracketing a waste of time and resources.
Not completely. You know well that the image shown on the EVF won't fully represent the possibilities of the image saved to file. A degree of understanding of how a raw converter will handle bringing out shadow detail or highlight recovery remains an important skill, akin to 'pre-visualisation'.
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MarkL

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2015, 08:06:47 am »

I've found that ETTR techniques usually result in subtle and undesirable color shifts in the finished result. I'd rather have better colors and tonalities and a bit more noise.

As soon as any big adjustment are done in post this seems to happen. The file may have a better SNR but the raw converter algorithms are not perfect. It is a big like making big EQ changes in audio.
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digitaldog

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2015, 09:35:35 am »

ETA: Also, can anyone recommend any good online resource regarding camera profiles with Lightroom?  Every now and then I revisit some of my old canon 5D raws and I'm nowhere near as happy with the LR 'default' camera profile settings for the 5D as I am for my Nikon. 


In this 30 minute video, we’ll look into the creation and use of DNG camera profiles in three raw converters. The video covers:

What are DNG camera profiles, how do they differ from ICC camera profiles.
Misconceptions about DNG camera profiles.
Just when, and why do you need to build custom DNG camera profiles?
How to build custom DNG camera profiles using the X-rite Passport software.
The role of various illuminants on camera sensors and DNG camera profiles.
Dual Illuminant DNG camera profiles.
Examples of usage of DNG camera profiles in Lightroom, ACR, and Iridient Developer.

Low Rez (YouTube):
http://youtu.be/_fikTm8XIt4

High Rez (download):
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/DNG%20Camera%20profile%20video.mov
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AlterEgo

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2015, 09:41:24 am »

Yeah, his site doesn't actually have anything about LR camera profiles.

I'm more after a condensed resource on the topic.  I don't really have time to chase down individual posts by people all over the internet.  I'm hoping someone has put together a resource on this.

you have a choice - read the original or read the hearsay...
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2015, 10:19:01 am »

Not completely. You know well that the image shown on the EVF won't fully represent the possibilities of the image saved to file. A degree of understanding of how a raw converter will handle bringing out shadow detail or highlight recovery remains an important skill, akin to 'pre-visualisation'.

Ok ok, let's be more precise:

- If you shoot JPEG an EVF is a high precision tool that turns your camera into a WYSYWYG device

- If you shoot RAW an EVF is a far more powerful and user friendly tool to decide exposure than an OVF
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 02:02:06 pm by Guillermo Luijk »
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bernie west

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2015, 10:30:18 am »

you have a choice - read the original or read the hearsay...

Or read a good summary...

Thanks dd for the link.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Precise Digital Exposure
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2015, 10:35:28 am »

Or read a good summary...
did he still states that ICC profiles are not scene-referred ?
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