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Author Topic: Epson announces new p800.  (Read 11801 times)

MHMG

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2015, 10:14:19 am »

Mark-
I just read your report on the p800. I was wondering if the low Dmax in some cases could be caused by the profile used. What would happen if you sent out a black patch (RGB=000) directly to the printer, bypassing any profile, and then measuring that to see what the printer/paper/ink combination can produce? You could also convert your test image to the profile and see what values the profile converts 000 to.
-John

Yes, I totally agree that the result I got with the Hahnemuhle ICC profile where 1440 dpi produced poorer DMax than the 5760 dpi driver setting even though Hahnemuhle specified 1440 dpi for that profile, is going to be easy to resolve by doing a few more tests along the lines you have suggested above.  It's on my "to do" list to send the P600 an untagged "no color adjust" target at the different screen output resolutions. This should tell us whether the Dmax differences I observed on HNPHotoRagPearl are due to the Epson output resolution setting or whether the HN Profile recommendation was simply bogus. The 5760 dpi setting was the better choice for that profile on all counts...Dmax, color, and tone) even though the HN documentation says to use 1440 dpi.

In part, this is typical "generic profile" nonsense where the vendor doesn't really give you enough to go on as far as appropriate driver settings.  For example, the documentation called for "Quality 4 (1440 dpi)" but quality 4 only applies to PC and not to Mac, and on my Mac, the Epson driver also has two 1440 choices for  Premium Luster (i.e. "photo -1440dpi" and "superfine-1440dpi"). I initially chose "photo-1440dpi", but 5760 dpi -high speed off turned out to work best no matter what because it gave great color and tighter dot structure that was easily held by the media. No way would I drop back to a 1440 dpi setting with an expensive fine art paper like HN Photo Rag Pearl. I'd be leaving image quality on the table. I'd rather wait a few minutes longer for a superior print.  

Please check back for continuing updates to the article on a regular basis. I'm taking a different approach with the P600 project by treating it as a "work in progress".  I know I need to perform many more tests, but I figured the printmaking community would rather learn something about the new Epson printers and HD ink set sooner rather than waiting much longer for the definitive final report ;D

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 10:18:14 am by MHMG »
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2015, 01:34:01 pm »

Apparently they are not using the precisioncore head technology as Epson has been boasting for more than a year or so?
Also looks like the P600 can deliver smaller inkdrop size (2pl for P600 vs 3.5pl voor P800)?
Wondering as to why not the new printhead technology.

As far as droplet size, Nothing really new with this, been that way for a while.  For some reason the smaller lower end printers often can print a smaller droplet, and additionally have a higher droplet “resolution”, example the R3000 is also 2pl droplet size and resolution is listed as 5760 x 1440 dpi.  I have no answer as to why, but it certainly doesn’t seem to affect the quality of the finished prints.

As far as the head technology, I think PrecisionCore’s strength is speed, and it’s being deployed in lower end printers to make them more competitive with laser printer.  But many of the technologies they describe in the precisionCore materials sound very similar to descriptions used when the “new” technology of the 11880 head was introduced which then made it’s way into all the Stylus Pro printers.  Perhaps PrecisionCore is just marketing speak for putting some of this technology into the lower end to get faster printing speeds?

I really don’t see it as a negative, print speed ratings of the new printer seem faster so it could be the some of that technology is in there.  From a print quality perspective the 3880 is no slouch and the biggest benefit of the new printer would be perhaps the blacks, definitely the longevity issue with yellow ink, and the ability to manage rolls.

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MHMG

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2015, 02:21:56 pm »

... For some reason the smaller lower end printers often can print a smaller droplet, and additionally have a higher droplet “resolution”, example the R3000 is also 2pl droplet size and resolution is listed as 5760 x 1440 dpi.  I have no answer as to why, but it certainly doesn’t seem to affect the quality of the finished prints.


It is most likely an engineering trade-off. A smaller printer makes smaller prints. You can deliver smaller drops and still build the image in a reasonable time. As the size of the print goes up, the patience of the customer will go down if print times become excessive. Given a finite number of nozzles, use bigger drops for a higher volume of ink flow, and the speed of the printer goes up to offset the time needed to cover the larger print area.

As for drop sizes and image quality, this topic does becomes more academic very quickly, but it fascinates me. The often cited argument is that if you can't see the dot structure at normal viewing distances, then why bother making finer dots? Well, it hinges on eye-brain visual stimuli that are hard to quantify. While we can say that people with 20-20 vision and good near distance focusing (i.e., young folks who don't need reading glasses :D) are going to be able to resolve approximately 5 to 6 line pairs per mm in the image plane, it's well known that photographic prints with even higher resolution are perceived to be of finer quality. The micro structural details lying just out of our immediate zone of visual acuity, also contribute to one's sense of image sharpness (this is Fourier Transform mathematics). We could have a very protracted discussion here, but consider a case well known to many photographers from the film era. Contact prints  from large format negatives look sharper yet smoother tonally than enlarged prints from the same negative, even when the enlargement is kept to only very low power (e.g. 2x-4x enlargement) from a large format negative in a diffusion head enlarger such that the final print still out resolves extra high frequency details well above that 6 lp/mm visual resolution limit on the print surface.
 
Also, consider how many old photographs are now being repurposed today. We are scanning them at high resolution to make new copies, and because a hardcopy print is often the only remaining example of a treasured image (I'll bet the digital era isn't going to completely eliminate that reality) and we often want to enlarge the image in the new copy print, microstructure detail in the original print becomes a very relevant factor as to how good the copy print is going to look. Any printer that can produce a finer micro structural detail, more free of dot structure or graininess per unit area of printed image, is going to yield a print with superior copy/enlargement capabilities. That's a big deal to archivists and historians. 8)  You can get some sense of this value in better micro structure in an inkjet print from an article I wrote quite a while ago regarding the Fuji Drylab printers. You will find it here:  http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/news.47.html


cheers,
Mark
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 03:49:19 pm by MHMG »
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2015, 04:14:00 pm »

That is the main reason, shorter processing and printing time when the minimum droplet size is larger. You see it in all wide format brands, either 3.5 or 4 picoliter. I also think that larger droplets allow preciser dot placement when the head carriage has to run faster, the last again a necessity to speed up printing on wide format printers. It has to be seen whether page wide head arrangements show a development to smaller droplets, the data stream on that kind of printers is probably the other limitation and the media speed can be high too so similar issues of dot addressing remain.

Precise and even dot addressing influences Dmax measurements too. A black patch without even the tiniest white spot gives the best Dmax result. The ink load itself does not have to be higher. On my old Epson 9000s an uneven black patch was often the cause for a lower measured Dmax. The highest printer resolution settings can create better black patches and even some dot overlap with the minimum droplet size then used. If the printer is correctly aligned.

After color profiling there is a loss in Dmax anyway. In best case I measure the highest Dmax on one of the black patches of my Z3x00 calibration targets, after that get the same or slightly lower Dmax on a (QTR) B&W target that I print with the driver set on printer color management (BW or Color mode does not matter then) and no application color management done. Using the created QTR B&W profile then in Qimage's color management (perceptual + BPC) and with the driver CM still on the Dmax drops slightly.

However using a color profile (P + BPC) + color mode and the printer CM off always takes the Dmax down. With no BPC set at Relative Colormetric it is worse, black chopped off. Tried this with several profile creators. My best guess is that they need some slack to allow color conversions up to the shadows but the black color tint is not affected compared to the calibration target black so I wonder why not keep the black itself where it was and create a roll off that is acceptable in the tone range. Could be the algorithms that specify the color mapping afterwards but it certainly affects the Dmax. The printer color management does not have this effect and (as I understand it) is based on a LUT per media preset.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

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dseelig

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2015, 05:03:49 pm »

My question is simple it seems Canon and HP are better in low humidity then past epson printers is this one based on the same enginerring as apst epons . Stuck valve problems and blown headds from low humidty?
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chez

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2015, 06:51:35 pm »

My question is simple it seems Canon and HP are better in low humidity then past epson printers is this one based on the same enginerring as apst epons . Stuck valve problems and blown headds from low humidty?

I run my 3880 through the winter months in a low humidity environment without any clogs. Don't know how low the humidity gets, but skin dries out and static electricity shocks everywhere.
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dseelig

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2015, 07:09:42 pm »

My 3880 was according to Epson destroyed by low humidity and they jsut laughed at me when I asked for a discount on a new one and said they would have somone get back to me no one ever did.
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2015, 08:51:27 pm »

I run my 3880 through the winter months in a low humidity environment without any clogs. Don't know how low the humidity gets, but skin dries out and static electricity shocks everywhere.
Here in northern NM the humidity is often in single digits, I’ve had no issues with my 3880 from day one. Can go months without printing and the heads clean as can be. Can’t say the same for the 4900 that sat a few feet away.
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hugowolf

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2015, 12:39:20 am »

Here in northern NM the humidity is often in single digits, I’ve had no issues with my 3880 from day one. Can go months without printing and the heads clean as can be. Can’t say the same for the 4900 that sat a few feet away.

Same here in central Virginia. 3880 and 9890 in the same room. The 3880 can go a couple of months without printing, then print with no problem. I sometimes have nozzles fall out while printing with the 9890. I have had RH at 15%, and still have no problems with the 3880. I now keep the Rh around 50%.

Brian A
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2015, 04:42:59 am »

The studio humidity level is of limited importance if the head seals on the capping station function correctly. That environment is humid enough. Any equipment sold these days gets a recommended humidity and temperature level but will function beyond the limits most of the time. If the seals do not function correctly the issues may appear later if the studio humidity is higher but in the end the cleaning processes are also compromised as the waste pump can not create enough sucking power either with bad sealing. The 9xx0 nozzle density is an issue, the lousy wiper design another. The  long Epson 7900 from the inside - out thread does not indicate that humidity is the main problem.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

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Wayne Fox

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2015, 01:19:53 pm »

seems we’ve veered off topic, np with that but thought this was sort of relevant to the main discussion of the new printer and inkset so I’d put it here instead of a new thread. this press release came out yesterday with what appears to be solid longevity numbers/expectations, especially B&W in ABW mode which may top out at over 400 years.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-epson-ultrachrome-hd-pigment-ink-technology-delivers-the-highest-print-permanence-ratings-ever-achieved-for-epson-ultrachrome-inks-300065987.html

There are a lot of factors into testing  this stuff, one of the most important being what determines a point of failure which is quite subjective, but as long as the testing is consistence between printers/papers/inks, then the relative merits of “this vs. that” are of some meaning.  I’ve never gotten too concerned with all of this but it appears Epson is finally competitive and maybe actually the leader (only time will tell that, we’ll see what Mark comes up with).
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Mike Guilbault

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2015, 09:23:27 pm »

My question is will this replace the 4900 or will there be a new replacement for the 4900. My main concern with the p800 is the 80ml ink cartridges. I much prefer the larger 200ml of the 4900.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2015, 02:01:21 pm »

My question is will this replace the 4900 or will there be a new replacement for the 4900. My main concern with the p800 is the 80ml ink cartridges. I much prefer the larger 200ml of the 4900.
I have no insider knowledge on this, but I would suspect the 4900 design as well as the larger printers will stay.  I haven’t heard any rumors that he HDR inkset with orange and green will not be continued.  It appears the current heads handle the inks which means the other printers could be upgraded without redesign and retooling in manufacturing, mechanically they are of more recent design and pretty robust, where  the p800 was base on the aging 3800 chassis but with some improvements which required manufacturing changes.

Hopefully a few design tweaks can make it into these printers as they are upgraded to the new inks (improved wipers nozzle maintenance) but I for one would buy a new version of the 9900 immediately even if the only change was the new inks.  A little discouraging to be using the 9900 when superior inks are available in it’s smaller siblings.
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Paul2660

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2015, 02:27:47 pm »

I have no insider knowledge on this, but I would suspect the 4900 design as well as the larger printers will stay.  I haven’t heard any rumors that he HDR inkset with orange and green will not be continued.  It appears the current heads handle the inks which means the other printers could be upgraded without redesign and retooling in manufacturing, mechanically they are of more recent design and pretty robust, where  the p800 was base on the aging 3800 chassis but with some improvements which required manufacturing changes.

Hopefully a few design tweaks can make it into these printers as they are upgraded to the new inks (improved wipers nozzle maintenance) but I for one would buy a new version of the 9900 immediately even if the only change was the new inks.  A little discouraging to be using the 9900 when superior inks are available in it’s smaller siblings.

Could they not just offer the newer ink to existing 9900's?  They need orange and green to be added.  Is the head on the P800 a different droplet size than the existing 3880?  I can't afford a new 9900, as I would have nowhere to put my current one and selling a used 9900 in my location is not going to be easy or even possible.  I was hoping that they could just upgrade the inks to existing 9900's to allow the 30% or so less bronzing, which I for one would love to see.  Of course it will be interesting to see if the P800 really has significantly less bronzing.

Paul
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John Caldwell

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2015, 02:29:29 pm »

Is there reason to believe the new ink formulation will, in and of itself, affect nozzle drop outs due to clog, air or any other fault?
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MHMG

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2015, 03:41:56 pm »

I was hoping that they could just upgrade the inks to existing 9900's to allow the 30% or so less bronzing, which I for one would love to see.  Of course it will be interesting to see if the P800 really has significantly less bronzing.

Paul


I've been looking at prints on Epson Premium Luster and HN Photo Rag Pearl made on both a new P600 printer I purchased about ten days ago and my older Epson 3880 using the same batches of paper. Initial print quality is very close for both printers, but I can see and have measured with instruments very real Dmax differences favoring the new HD ink set. Regrettably so far, I can't convince myself there is any improvement to the bronzing or differential gloss performance. Epson shows a fairly convincing "raking light" photo of what they claim to be a 40% reduction in bronzing, but geez, I'm trying hard to replicate that result, and so far I haven't been able to do so. I guess if and when I finally can document some improvement in some images, at the end of the day, if you are like me and simply want to make glossy or luster prints with essentially no bronzing, then the new HD ink set can't get you there. You will need to use a dye-based printer or a pigmented ink printer with a gloss optimizer channel (typically much much better but not always perfect, definitely better than the HD inks on their own), or lastly, you can spray coat the final pigment print (a real PITA, but it does effectively eliminate bronzing and gloss differential).

As for retrofitting the new HD ink formulation into older Epson K3 or K3VM printers, I suspect it is technically possible without incurring insurmountable R&D and manufacturing expenses, and that for some users they'd even be willing to pay premium for an alternate set of ink cartridges for their older machines. I also firmly believe Epson would generate a lot of customer good will by doing so, but I've already been told, even chastised by various Epson technical representatives, it's never going to happen >:(  We are beating a dead horse if we take that discussion any further, IMHO ;D

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 06:25:42 pm by MHMG »
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2015, 05:35:47 pm »

Could they not just offer the newer ink to existing 9900's?  They need orange and green to be added.  Is the head on the P800 a different droplet size than the existing 3880?  I can't afford a new 9900, as I would have nowhere to put my current one and selling a used 9900 in my location is not going to be easy or even possible.  I was hoping that they could just upgrade the inks to existing 9900's to allow the 30% or so less bronzing, which I for one would love to see.  Of course it will be interesting to see if the P800 really has significantly less bronzing.

Paul

I’ve been told it’s the same head ... whether that means it’s virtually identical (i.e. same part number) or if it means it’s the same basic head but slight modifications I’m not sure.  However, I think the issue with upgrading older machines is probably more about firmware and some of the internal hardware.  The new printer prints faster than the 3880 so something changed other than minor cosmetics.  And certainly screening/dithering processes improve with every generation of printers as well, and the new blacks will certainly require some major tweaks in the those processes.  I’m not sure those are easily “upgradeable”.
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DeanChriss

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2015, 06:44:55 pm »

Could they not just offer the newer ink to existing 9900's?

If they could, would they? I'm pretty sure Epson, or any other manufacturer, would rather see their customers buy new printers than develop retrofits to keep older printers around for as long as possible. It's just the nature of business, IMO.
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John Caldwell

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2015, 07:22:13 pm »

Dean they might is this case if the folklore is true: That the printer is simply the (money loosing) package in which inks are sold.
John-
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Randy Carone

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Re: Epson announces new p800.
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2015, 09:18:36 pm »

John, it makes total sense to me that Epson would expect to be paid for the next incremental step in their research and development. Yes, they want to sell ink, but you can be certain that they would like to sell more equipment as well. There have been many passionate complaints about Epson's shortcomings in these pages but I'm still amazed at what I can produce on my old 3800. :) Blows my mind. Epson deserves the praise (and the profits).
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