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Author Topic: Religious Freedom Act  (Read 112639 times)

AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #300 on: April 03, 2015, 05:08:06 pm »

What do you think is the best world of the two?

between these two specific alternatives - the first one... I like to have the right and it is up to me whether I will exercise my right or not...

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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #301 on: April 03, 2015, 05:18:20 pm »

between these two specific alternatives - the first one... I like to have the right and it is up to me whether I will exercise my right or not...

Ok, so you choose "RIGHT-WORLD, where any private business can legally discriminate anybody for any reason they like."

Now let's imagine you're living in right-world and that one of your customer is unhappy with the job you did.
The job was done flawlessly yet he's unhappy and wants his money back.
You refuse and the customer leaves knowing that he can't successfully sue you.

So he start talking to people that know you, saying that "well, if you ask me that guy likes small children a little too much for my taste".
He's not plainly saying that you are a pedofile: he's just saying that he wouldn't leave his children alone with you.

People around you start thinking that better safe than sorry, you know.

So the car repair shop start refusing to repair your car.
And the grocery store decide that is better not to sell stuff to you.
And for some reason you can't get the medical doctor to have a look at your back pain.
And you enter a coffee shop but they refuse to serve you.

Do you still think prefer right-world over the two?


(If the example seems too far-fetched, remember maccartism)



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AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #302 on: April 03, 2015, 05:28:23 pm »

remember maccartism
ahaha... dear, I haul from a country where "McCarthyism" might be considered as a liberal perversion of justice  ;D ... so yes, unlike most of the people in this topic, when I prefer something I can actually compare my own experience... as the joke /there, sorry if somebody feel offended, it is what it is/ goes - "hi, you know those negroes in america,  they don't eat enough... damn ! I wish we can get the leftovers", I am sorry if the point was lost in translation... my grand-grandfather was not born a free man, for example, albeit he lived his adult life as such.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 05:34:38 pm by AlterEgo »
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #303 on: April 03, 2015, 05:29:46 pm »

ahaha... dear, I haul from a country where "McCarthyism" might be considered as a liberal perversion of justice  ;D
So you still prefer the right-world?
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AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #304 on: April 03, 2015, 05:43:26 pm »

So you still prefer the right-world?
but of course, I wish to have the legal right and decide if I want to exercise the legal right in question myself, w/o resorting to lies (like somebody suggested here) - whether I will do so (exercise) or not, that shall be up to me to decide...
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #305 on: April 03, 2015, 05:45:11 pm »

but of course, I wish to have the legal right and decide if I want to exercise the legal right in question myself, w/o resorting to lies (like somebody suggested here) - whether I will do so (exercise) or not, that shall be up to me to decide...

Ok, then.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #306 on: April 03, 2015, 05:53:08 pm »

Ok, then.

peace, friendship, bubblegum

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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #307 on: April 03, 2015, 05:54:47 pm »

peace, friendship, bubblegum

 ;D

(My dentist will kill me for the bubblegum....)
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NancyP

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #308 on: April 03, 2015, 06:40:56 pm »

Well, Slobodan, all sorts of people get on the internet and turn into loud-mouthed bullies - because they can. Because no-one is going to check up on them, they think. Because they don't lose face with other bullies, for mouthing off and not working a muscle larger than the ones needed to type a threat. 99% of the threats are not credible, which helps a bit but doesn't make it any less miserable to receive a threat, especially if one has no experience being bullied. I am sorry for the owner, who may just be plain naive about the internet. Plus, we don't have all the information, the unfortunate owner might have some ex-spouse or a local with a grudge who could be setting up revenge. Having been bullied in person before, I laughed off anonymous rape threats on USENET "popular" unmoderated alt. fora and other sites as not credible. But without having had to think things through, I might have been spooked, and the pizzeria owner might be spooked too.

Meanwhile, take a look at what happened at a storefront church above a bar about 40 years ago
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/06/24/remembering-the-upstairs-lounge-the-u-s-a-s-largest-lgbt-massacre-happened-40-years-ago-today/

and reflect that although this was the deadly fire, there were other arsons of gay congregation spaces occurring in that era (partial list, omitting the no-injuries St. Louis example and many others)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_arsn.htm





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jjj

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #309 on: April 03, 2015, 07:08:28 pm »

Nancy - It is most certainly worth remindeing those defending the 'freedom' to discriminate that people kill those who are gay, simply because they do not like them being 'different'.

In the UK this week, two male prisoners got married. The part that was key to this being so interesting is that both were sentenced for gay bashing crimes that resulted in murder.
Research I saw a while back also concluded that those who like to indulge in anti-gay behaviour were also more likely to aroused by gay porn. So whenever people make a big fuss about other people's sexual behaviour, it always makes me wonder what they are trying to deflect from or hide.

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #310 on: April 03, 2015, 07:08:41 pm »

Well, Slobodan, all sorts of people get on the internet and turn into loud-mouthed bullies...

Nancy, let's not kid ourselves that this and other cases are simply a result of a few deranged individuals. That is a result of well-orchastrated, well-coordinated campaign of terror unleashed on normal people in the last few years by the likes of diegopig, whose call for "necessary starving to death" of those he disagrees with are repeated here several times wihout anyone raising a slightest objection. Much less vivid accusations of cops by the NYC mayor resulted in death of two of them, and he and the likes of him, including the president and AG, opened the season on cops across the nation. Lets not forget how a similar call for "burning down" ended up in Ferguson.

Yes, many bad things happened 40 or 400 years ago. Is that a reason for similar things to happen today? Yesterday, gays were beaten, sometimes to death. Today, some would like to beat "bigots" the same way. Progress?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #311 on: April 03, 2015, 07:12:25 pm »

So you still prefer the right-world?

Note that his family already experienced the left-world.

jjj

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #312 on: April 03, 2015, 07:12:33 pm »

Nancy, let's not kid ourselves that this and other cases are simply a result of a few deranged individuals. That is a result of well-orchastrated, well-coordinated campaign of terror unleashed on normal people in the last few years by the likes of diegopig, whose call for "necessary starving to death" of those he disagrees with are repeated here several times wihout anyone raising a slightest objection. Much less vivid accusations of cops by the NYC mayor resulted in death of two of them, and he and the likes of him, including the president and AG, opened the season on cops across the nation. Lets not forget how a similar call for "burning down" ended up in Ferguson.

Yes, many bad things happened 40 or 400 years ago. Is that a reason for similar things to happen today? Yesterday, gays were beaten, sometimes to death. Today, some would like to beat "bigots" the same way. Progress?
There's a vast difference between those being oppressed standing up for themselves and those keeping others down.
Hurting others is never a good answer regardless, but ignoring the greater context is simply naive behaviour of an armchair warrior who has no concept of how the persecuted and discriminated against experience life - which is roughly how you like to dismiss other's opinions, Slobodan.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #313 on: April 03, 2015, 07:32:02 pm »

There's a vast difference ...

... only because of your perception and worldview. You see "oppressed standing up for themselves," I see thugs looking for a special treatment. You of course assume that your worldview is right, and mine is wrong.

As for experience, I bet I have more than you. I came from the "left-world" (and from the common side of it, not the privileged elite) to the "right-world," so at least I have a first-hand experience of both. Well, I hoped I was coming to the right-world, turns out it is under assault from the left-world from within.

NancyP

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #314 on: April 03, 2015, 07:54:08 pm »

Slobodan, click through my prior post and read the links, you might learn something. One of the main points is that the public, other ministers, and some families made jokes about the deaths, refused burial (which is for the family, not the deceased), just didn't care.
Or consider the Atlanta Olympics bomber, if you will.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph
Few people remember that the guy also blew up a gay bar and two abortion clinics, killing 2 people and injuring 111 other people over his bombing career. He was one of the first American terrorists to use the two-stage detonation, in which first responders were targeted by the second detonation.

This is a bit different from a drunken tweet, I would say.

I don't shop at Hobby Lobby. Am I starving that business to death? I don't owe Hobby Lobby my business. I can source better materials from locally owned craft shops anyway. I don't buy at a particular local bakery after they were rude to someone I know, an American-born student of Indian subcontinent descent. Am  I starving that bakery to death?

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #315 on: April 03, 2015, 08:03:36 pm »

... I don't shop at Hobby Lobby. Am I starving that business to death? I don't owe Hobby Lobby my business. I can source better materials from locally owned craft shops anyway. I don't buy at a particular local bakery after they were rude to someone I know, an American-born student of Indian subcontinent descent. Am  I starving that bakery to death?

Nancy, "starving to death" reference was not meant for you and certainly not your examples (what you do and how you do it, I would do as well). If you read diegopig's posts, you'd notice that he advocates something entirely different and much more sinister.

Quote
... you might learn something.

Frankly, I did not expect that condescending tone from you.

AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #316 on: April 03, 2015, 08:08:59 pm »

Meanwhile, take a look at what happened at a storefront church above a bar about 40 years ago
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/06/24/remembering-the-upstairs-lounge-the-u-s-a-s-largest-lgbt-massacre-happened-40-years-ago-today/

and reflect that although this was the deadly fire, there were other arsons of gay congregation spaces occurring in that era (partial list, omitting the no-injuries St. Louis example and many others)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_arsn.htm

so you imply that every person who does not want to conduct business w/ gays is some kind of murderer ? you are not implying though that every man who served or serving in US Army for example is the kind of person from Abu Ghraib, no ?  not to say that we really do not know whether it was an act of a homophobic person or a deranged gay ...

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AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #317 on: April 03, 2015, 08:15:46 pm »

There's a vast difference between those being oppressed standing up for themselves and those keeping others down.

there is one more option that you intentionally forgot to mention - wishing not to be forced to have to deal with somebody in a course of conducting your totally private business w/o any public assistance or subsidies, etc (but if you accept public funds or whatever - then you can't refuse any member of the pubic - so your choice then)

Hurting others is never a good answer regardless

try to comprehend that you hurting a person by imposing yourself on him in his place of his private business...
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NancyP

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #318 on: April 03, 2015, 09:57:59 pm »

Well, I will let you in on a secret. Chances are very good that you have already done business with a gay person. You just don't know it. It is clear to me that this is all about male panic, either felt personally or transmitted by the culture (too much listening to radio), and not about facts, and likely not about sincerely felt religious belief. If you were sincerely Christian, you'd be a bit more contemplative on Good Friday, perhaps attend a Tenebrae (vigil) service.

The entertainment value of the thread has finally hit rock bottom. Hasta la vista, bayybee.
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Telecaster

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #319 on: April 03, 2015, 11:05:10 pm »

Well, I will let you in on a secret. Chances are very good that you have already done business with a gay person. You just don't know it. It is clear to me that this is all about male panic, either felt personally or transmitted by the culture (too much listening to radio), and not about facts, and likely not about sincerely felt religious belief. If you were sincerely Christian, you'd be a bit more contemplative on Good Friday, perhaps attend a Tenebrae (vigil) service.

The male panic aspect may be a bit exaggerated here given LuLa's overwhelmingly male forum presence, but in my experience it's a real thing nonetheless. More broadly it's about fear of the Other and anger at not being able to suppress the Other and revulsion at having to confront the Other. The Puritans came to North America centuries ago primarily because they couldn't tolerate the beliefs & ideas & behavior of Other people. We still live with their heritage whether we like it or not. When your sense of self is so entangled with being Not Other, being Us and not Them, how do you deal with living in a culture where all sorts of Others are gaining acceptance and even respect? There are no remaining new frontiers you can escape to. It's a serious problem, one I suspect will continue to cause us a great deal of grief in the coming years & decades.

-Dave-
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