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Author Topic: Religious Freedom Act  (Read 111077 times)

MatthewCromer

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #240 on: April 02, 2015, 06:29:30 pm »

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No, it's being allowed to be a bigot against anything your region deems fit.

No, it's not about that. These laws (first signed by the Democrat Bill Clinton) have been  used to allow a Muslim in prison to grow a beard for religious reasons, a Sikh to keep their jobs and be allowed to wear a small ceremonial dagger (a requirement for their religion), and Amish to be allowed to use their buggies for transportation.

They are not "about being allowed to be a bigot".

Those claiming that freedom of religion acts are about bigots discriminating against gay people need to show evidence that these laws have been used for that purpose in the two decades that they have been on the books.



« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 08:18:54 pm by MatthewCromer »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #241 on: April 02, 2015, 06:40:10 pm »

...your stating that I beat my wife is somewhat out of order.

In case you are not aware, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" is a textbook example of a logical fallacy known as "loaded question." Nothing to do with you or your wife.

MatthewCromer

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #242 on: April 02, 2015, 08:33:13 pm »

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The Indiana law and its clones in other states are simply wrong-headed at best, and frankly nakedly homophobic. They offer a chance for legally supported racial, sexual and religious intolerance.

I'm afraid you have been badly informed on this issue by the media.

These laws are about making it possible for Muslim women to wear a head-scarf in school, Amish to drive their buggies on the roads, and Sikhs to be allowed to wear a small ceremonial knife.

None of these laws have been used to allow bigots to discriminate against gay people.

Now if you want to fight against laws that genuinely discriminate, they passed an anti-gay marriage amendment in my state a few years ago, and we sure could have used more awareness and verbal support to defeat it. I wish it had gotten 1/100 of the media attention - it is a genuinely bad and discriminatory law.
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digitaldog

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #243 on: April 02, 2015, 08:59:30 pm »

I'm afraid you have been badly informed on this issue by the media.
These laws are about making it possible for Muslim women to wear a head-scarf in school, Amish to drive their buggies on the roads, and Sikhs to be allowed to wear a small ceremonial knife.
Go on... it's more than just that or is this totally wrong?:

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Twenty U.S. states and the federal government have RFRAs, which allow individuals to sue the government if they believe their First Amendment religious rights have been violated.
The original measures in Indiana and Arkansas go further than all but that of Texas, allowing lawsuits between private parties. The Texas law also includes provisions that it cannot be used to violate civil rights.
That raised the possibility of businesses using the law as a defense if they are sued, such as realtors for refusing to show homes to a member of the LGBT community or caterers if they rejected a request to provide for a same-sex wedding.Steve Barnes, Reuters


This off base?:
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The Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) is a federal law that was passed by the U.S. Congress in 1993 and signed into law by President Bill Clinton.[6][7] The law mandates that religious liberty of individuals can only be limited by the “least restrictive means of furthering a compelling government interest.”[8] Originally, the federal law was intended to apply to federal, state, and local governments. In 1997, the U.S. Supreme Court in City of Boerne v. Flores held that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act only applies to the federal government but not states and other local municipalities within them. As a result, 21 states have passed their own RFRAs that apply to their individual state and local governments.
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telyt

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #244 on: April 03, 2015, 12:51:07 am »

did I say which pope ?

Here's Pope Francis, from the same link:

The creation of the universe, Francis said, was not a singular event, but rather “went forward for centuries and centuries, millennia and millennia until it became what we know today.”
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #245 on: April 03, 2015, 02:22:56 am »

Just like it would be hard for Diego to portray in a favorable light a rally by bigots under the banner "Starve Fags to Death."

That's one of the infinite number of points you don't get (but that's neither strange nor unexpected).

I don't think it's a good thing to organize to starve to death the homophobic bigots : I think it's NECESSARY.
That's the same difference by thinking a war is good and a war is necessary.
Do you get it?  (don't mind to answer: it's a given you can't answer question).


Neo-Nazis and KKK are legal in the U.S.
And the fact that neo-nazis and KKK are legal does mean that they are NOT engaging in discrimination, right?
(don't mind to answer: it's a rethorical question, the correct answer is "wrong").


Anyway, as I said earlier, the cockroaches are fleeing and the governor is hastly backing.
I guess the bigots don't realize that politicians are usually more close to prostitutes that to pornostar: both sell they body for money, but the prostitute usually don't do it so in the light of the day.

What I wonder is if there is an organized effort, on the bigots side, to loose so badly and so often.
I start thinking that some of your leaders use this loses to fuel bigots faux persecution feeling.
You know what I mean, don't you? Saying "you're hurting my freedom of speech" just because someone tells you "I won't give my money to homophobic bigots".



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michael

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #246 on: April 03, 2015, 08:04:10 am »

OK kids, it's time to simmer down.

The debaters have scored their points and the rest have been put to sleep by the name calling and posturing.

We have hesitated to close this thread, because Kevin and I believe strongly in free speech – just not in stupid speech.

So let's wrap this up. A very good editorial in the NYT today has a good perspective. I hope that you can read it

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/03/opinion/timothy-egan-the-conscience-of-a-corporation.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region&region=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region
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Iluvmycam

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #247 on: April 03, 2015, 10:27:14 am »

Before I made artists' book by hand I tried a few small printers. I was refused at 2 places...religious reasons.

I didn't care. They have the right to not work on my stuff if it is offensive to them.

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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #248 on: April 03, 2015, 10:46:08 am »

Before I made artists' book by hand I tried a few small printers. I was refused at 2 places...religious reasons.

I didn't care. They have the right to not work on my stuff if it is offensive to them.
Do they have the right to refuse on your stuff because they are offended by what you are?


I think that a point is missing, which is this: even if it was their right to refuse to work on your stuff because of you, exercising this right may be an exercise unnecessarily devoid of respect of other.

The operative word, here, is unnecessarily.
Rights and freedoms (like freedom of speech) are not toys to pleasure oneself with: they are tools to build a better society.

This means that the unnecessarily devoid of respect of other use of a right or a freedom is in fact an abuse, because such an exercise doesn't serve the purpose.

I'm an atheist and I have the right to say that all religions are just tales and lies.
But I don't go outside churches and scream "you're being lied!" to those going in or coming out, because I would be disrespectful of those people without doing any good to the society as a whole.

Some extreatheists would say that a world without believers would be a better world, but guess what? They are wrong.
And, more so, they are wrong in the very same way homophobic people say a world without gay would be a better world.

That's the real problem with this law: it tell homophobic people that it's they right to exercise their rights and freedoms in a unnecessarily devoid of respect of other way.

Because, let's face it: the world isn't going to be a better place if a gay is refused service from a business.



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AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #249 on: April 03, 2015, 11:08:19 am »

Because, let's face it: the world isn't going to be a better place if a gay is refused service from a business.

the world is not going to be a better place if a gay is forcing his/her way into a private business that does not wish to deal with him/her... has to work both ways... "you" (not you personally, in case you are not gay, hence quotes) want that business owner to respect "you" - do "you" care to respect him/her in turn and not patronize his/her establishment ?

« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 11:11:26 am by AlterEgo »
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #250 on: April 03, 2015, 11:14:08 am »

the world is not going to be a better place if a gay is forcing his/her way into a private business that does not wish to deal with him/her... has to work both ways.
Does paying for a job equates to "forcing his/her way into a private business"?

If I was gay and have one of my straight friend buy something from someone who wouldn't sell me because I'm gay, would I be "forcing into the guy's business"?


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AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #251 on: April 03, 2015, 11:16:56 am »

Does paying for a job equates to "forcing his/her way into a private business"?

yes, if you payment is not desired...
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #252 on: April 03, 2015, 11:18:20 am »

yes, if you payment is not desired...
Why my payment should not be desired?
For the job I'm asking to do or because I'm asking to do it?
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AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #253 on: April 03, 2015, 11:22:43 am »

If I was gay and have one of my straight friend buy something from someone who wouldn't sell me because I'm gay, would I be "forcing into the guy's business"?

depends... imagine you are a nazi and jewish jeweler does not want to make a swastika piece (perfectly legal in the state of Indiana) for you...

so how does it feel now ? try to put emotions aside and consider a legal side of the matter ... do you (now a jewish jeweler) want to lie (like digitaldog) in order to discriminate, do you want to make that piece or do you want a law to allow to refuse the services (legal protection to discriminate in law-defined cases) ?

next question - you are a nazi and you do not ask jewish jeweler to make you a swastika piece, but you enter a store with such piece profoundly displayed somewhere on you

next question - you are a nazi and you do not ask jewish jeweler to make you a swastika piece neither you enter a store with such piece profoundly displayed and out of respect to a store owner you are hiding your allegiances and pretending to be regular man full with love to all protected classes
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 11:40:21 am by AlterEgo »
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AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #254 on: April 03, 2015, 11:23:37 am »

Why my payment should not be desired?
why do some folks believe in god...
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #255 on: April 03, 2015, 11:25:19 am »

why do some folks believe in god...
That doesn't answer my question: is my payment unwelcome because I'm asking you to do a job you don't want to do or because I am the one asking you to do the job?
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #256 on: April 03, 2015, 11:26:45 am »

depends... imagine you are a nazi and jewish jeweler does not want to make a swastika piece (perfectly legal in the state of Indiana) for you...
Le'ts imagine I'm a afroamerican man and ask a jewish jeweler to do a swastika piece  and he refuses.
Does he refuses because I'm a afroamerican man?
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AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #257 on: April 03, 2015, 11:33:44 am »

Le'ts imagine I'm a afroamerican man and ask a jewish jeweler to do a swastika piece  and he refuses.
Does he refuses because I'm a afroamerican man?

are you asking me to imagine myself a jewish jeweler - business owner ? like I asked you to imagine yourself a customer before... ok, if I imagine myself a jewish jeweler in this case then __YES__ - I want a legal protection from the state of Indiana to be able to refuse your patronage based on your desire to order a swastika piece...
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #258 on: April 03, 2015, 11:35:50 am »

are you asking me to imagine myself a jewish jeweler - business owner ? like I asked you to imagine yourself a customer before... ok, if I imagine myself a jewish jeweler in this case then __YES__ - I want a legal protection from the state of Indiana to be able to refuse your patronage based on your desire to order a swastika piece...
So you're refusing to do the job because of the job itself, not because I'm afroamerican, right?
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AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #259 on: April 03, 2015, 11:35:57 am »

That doesn't answer my question: is my payment unwelcome because I'm asking you to do a job you don't want to do or because I am the one asking you to do the job?
it actually does... some people have a certain moral (and it is not your business to judge those) values so that they don't want your money
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