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Author Topic: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses  (Read 11390 times)

synn

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2015, 01:40:01 am »

It is indeed slightly different in that the flash duration will be shorter than 1/800 when using a regular flash with a leaf shutter lens while the flash duration is going to be essentially the same as the shutter speed when using HSS, but that's only going to have a slightly visible effect on subjects for which you want to convey some subtle motion, correct?

It seems to me that this is a pretty rare case. Until now the main problem was the lack of power with Nikon flash in HSS, the B1 significantly expands the cases where daily flash photography can be used with non leaf shutter lenses.

And I do own a pair of B1 btw.

Cheers,
Bernard


I don't think you understand how short a flash pulse is.
It is anywhere between 1/5000 - 1/13000, depending on the power, the brand etc. Some brands have even shorter flash pulses. When you sync with a leaf shutter, you are given the possibility to have a very short exposure for the subject and a much longer one for the background. You can have a frozen subject and a decently exposed background. When you do HSS, you have one exposure for both. If you manage to freeze the subject, you are left with a pitch black background, which defeats the purpose of shooting outdoors.

Anyway, I am not here to teach you the basics of flash photography. As any professional who uses leaf shutter sync for his or her work and they will say the same thing to you. If it doesn't affect your work, good for you. But it does for a lot of people, who do this seriously and no, this is not a rare case to us. Our choice of gear is actually dependent on scenarios like these. This is why leaf shutter technology still had a market.

Not gonna prolong this discussion anymore as it is not relevant to the thread subject. I will just sign off saying that if I wanted stitching advice, I would ask you but flash photography is really not something where I would turn to you for expert advice.

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2015, 02:49:56 am »

Hi,

Here is a test image by 3d-kraft using the Sonnar T* 1.8/55:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5524/11689143666_7040b7b03d_o.jpg

And one using the Otus:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7373/11687601664_62d4936880_o.jpg

The Otus is clearly the better lens at large apertures. Note that it achieves moiré in the corner at full aperture!

Best regards
Erik
I have a Sony A7 with the 55mm 1.8 and love it to death. I'm just curious what choice would you guys make and why. 4k for a system or a lens lol.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 02:59:23 am by ErikKaffehr »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2015, 06:37:13 am »

Synn,

Thanks for the lecture! The friendly tone is a great addition! ;)

I share your view about the value of leaf shutter lenses, but I am not sure to understand the problem with HSS. If you don't mind extending the lesson another step:

- The value of leaf shutter is in those cases when the high luminosity ambiance dictates a shutter speed faster than 1/400s at base ISO and, typicall f2-f4 apertures, and you want to increase subject illumination with flash light, correct?
- Non leaf shutter lenses synch satisfactory up to 1/320s (officially 1/250), correct?

So what happens with HSS in those circumpstances? Assuming that 1/800 sec is ambiance at ISO100 and f2.8 and that this isn't fast enough to freeze your subject motion, for which you need 1/2000 (close to the real duration of many portable flahses near full power anyway, B1 is 1/1000 at full power). You just need to increase ISO to 320 to still expose the ambiance correctly. The HSS flash output power will be set to overpower ambiance.

What exactly is wrong with this?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 08:26:29 am by BernardLanguillier »
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synn

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2015, 07:12:57 am »

Like i said, Bernard. This thread isn't the place for this discussion.

You may feel free to either PM me/ Google for these answers yourselves/ join a flash photography workshop that will broaden your horizons a bit.

I would suggest reading Fstoppers as a valuable exercise.

Good day.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2015, 07:36:22 am »

Like i said, Bernard. This thread isn't the place for this discussion.

You may feel free to either PM me/ Google for these answers yourselves/ join a flash photography workshop that will broaden your horizons a bit.

I would suggest reading Fstoppers as a valuable exercise.

He he he...  thank you.  ;D

I wonder how this guy is doing it? http://neilvn.com/tangents/high-speed-flash-sync-hss-profoto-b1-flash/

Fstoppers seems to love them too: https://fstoppers.com/gear/profoto-adds-high-speed-sync-beloved-b1-strobe-through-firmware-update-49782

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 08:24:22 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Manoli

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2015, 10:26:12 am »

I don't think you understand how short a flash pulse is.  It is anywhere between 1/5000 - 1/13000, depending on the power, the brand etc.

It's more like 1/2000 – 1/25,000 and some generators can do that 30x a second.

When you sync with a leaf shutter, you are given the possibility to have a very short exposure for the subject and a much longer one for the background. You can have a frozen subject and a decently exposed background.

As usual you've got your arse back to front.

The value of the leaf shutter is exactly the opposite - you've got the possibility to have a shorter, not a longer exposure, for the background in sync with the f-stop on the subject/cam. That way your background (daylight) doesn't get blown out. Alternatively, it also allows you to use a wider f-stop for shallow DOF.

The f-stop rules both, but the light on the subject is controlled by the flash output , zilch to do with the shutter speed, which serves to 'sync' the two and correctly expose the background.   With decent Ws output, a shutter speed of 1/200 or 1/800 ain't going to be relevant. An f/1.4 or f/2 though, is.

Anyway, I am not here to teach you the basics of flash photography.

Quite.

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synn

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2015, 12:37:32 pm »

Either get better at comprehending English or find someone else to stalk. Preferably both.
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Martin Ranger

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2015, 01:22:42 pm »

Either get better at comprehending English or find someone else to stalk. Preferably both.

In my experience, the failure to get an idea across tends to be the fault of the person trying to express that idea. Of course some ideas are so wrong nobody can coherently bring them across.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2015, 02:33:54 pm »

Hi,

I would agree that Synn has a point on leaf shutters having an advantage over focal plane shutters. On the other hand, there is no need to overdramatize those differences.

To begin with, modern focal plane shutters can have pretty short sync speeds. My A99 SLT has 1/300 and the Nikon D800 is a bit faster. That difference between 1/300 and 1/800 the Hasselblad offers is not a world of difference.

If we look at stopping motion, A DSLR doesn't need the help of electronic flash in stopping motion 1/4000 s is going to that just, fine. If you need fill flash, it would preferably one to two stops below nominal, if you want a natural look. High speed sync is wasting a lot of power, but little light would be needed anyway.

There is a trend in some branches of photography to overpower the sun. In that case you want maximum throughput from the flash. Here a central shutter is clearly of advantage, or you can opt for a flash with long duration, they can go up to something like 1/600 s.

I take a liberty to link an image, which both stops motion and has significant fill light. According to the photographer, Hans van Eisden, exposure was 1/3200s at f/1.4. The model's name is Bibi Schouten. Personally, I would suggest that this image would be better with fill light reduced 1-2 stops, but that is just taste and should not be subject to discussion.


So, yes Synn has a good point, at least in theory. Now, good theories hold value also in practice, but that practice may be a very narrow niche.

Best regards
Erik

Ps. In my view, it is quite OK to link to a published image. After all, the image is published with the intention to be shown and the photographer has been clearly attributed.
This photographer has gained my attention as he published a link to this article here on lula: https://www.hansvaneijsden.com/colorchecker-perfect-skin-colors/ .

I don't think you understand how short a flash pulse is.
It is anywhere between 1/5000 - 1/13000, depending on the power, the brand etc. Some brands have even shorter flash pulses. When you sync with a leaf shutter, you are given the possibility to have a very short exposure for the subject and a much longer one for the background. You can have a frozen subject and a decently exposed background. When you do HSS, you have one exposure for both. If you manage to freeze the subject, you are left with a pitch black background, which defeats the purpose of shooting outdoors.

Anyway, I am not here to teach you the basics of flash photography. As any professional who uses leaf shutter sync for his or her work and they will say the same thing to you. If it doesn't affect your work, good for you. But it does for a lot of people, who do this seriously and no, this is not a rare case to us. Our choice of gear is actually dependent on scenarios like these. This is why leaf shutter technology still had a market.

Not gonna prolong this discussion anymore as it is not relevant to the thread subject. I will just sign off saying that if I wanted stitching advice, I would ask you but flash photography is really not something where I would turn to you for expert advice.


« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 02:39:38 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2015, 03:51:54 pm »

I wonder if one of the posters recently enjoying the cut and thrust of debate would enlighten me as to what this has to do with the thread title :Topic: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses ?
And we are only on page 2  ::)

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synn

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2015, 04:31:01 pm »

I wonder if one of the posters recently enjoying the cut and thrust of debate would enlighten me as to what this has to do with the thread title :Topic: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses ?
And we are only on page 2  ::)



The original post mentioned a Hasselblad as one potential option. I made a remark that there is one advantage to the hasselblad setup that even the sharpest lens on a focal plane shutter setup cannot match and gave one of the few use cases where the advantage is seen. Of course, certain experts who have an axe to grind jumped right on to derail the discussion. It's especially amusing when the parties have next to nothing to show for their experience in flash photography, yet insist on arguing just to oppose me.

I have better things to do than this. If the OP is serious about strobe lit portraiture, maybe he got my point. Couldn't care less what the keyboard warriors think.

Carry on.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2015, 05:37:18 pm »

The original post mentioned a Hasselblad as one potential option. I made a remark that there is one advantage to the hasselblad setup that even the sharpest lens on a focal plane shutter setup cannot match and gave one of the few use cases where the advantage is seen. Of course, certain experts who have an axe to grind jumped right on to derail the discussion. It's especially amusing when the parties have next to nothing to show for their experience in flash photography, yet insist on arguing just to oppose me.

No axe to grind here, just followed up on your statements with perfectly reasonnable questions that you declined to answer.

The purpose of my answers was simply to clarify what can be done with a DSLR/Otus using the latest flash technologies of which I appear to have more first hand experience than you do. Everybody knows the value of leaf shutter lenses (I do own 3 Hassy V lens shutter lenses, used to own H ones too), so I am not sure why you act as if you were threatened by the proposition that newly improved technologies such as the HSS implementation of the Profoto B1 are increasing very significantly the flash applications that can be adressed without leaf shutter lenses.

As far as having no flash images to share (I don't see why you need to try to discredit me instead of answering the questions), that's because they are mostly used in private projects that involve people that don't want these images to be shared. But here is one for you.



Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 08:55:09 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2015, 03:20:23 am »

Well,

Just to say, electronic flash can be used to really stop motion, but it is usually done in darkened rooms so camera exposure time matters little.



Getting back to the Otus I have some interest in that lens, as I am interested in a lens around 85 mm that can be used fully open for shallow depth. The Otus 85/1.4 fills that bill perfectly. But, it is a lot of money, which I normally regard to be a finite resource. I guess I wait to see what the Sigma 85/1.4 Art will look like.

What I want to see is a lens free of longitudinal chromatic aberration.

An 85/2.0 APO from Zeiss at half the price of the Otus, I would put on order immediately!

Best regards
Erik

No axe to grind here, just followed up on your statements with perfectly reasonnable questions that you declined to answer.

The purpose of my answers was simply to clarify what can be done with a DSLR/Otus using the latest flash technologies of which I appear to have more first hand experience than you do. Everybody knows the value of leaf shutter lenses (I do own 3 Hassy V lens shutter lenses, used to own H ones too), so I am not sure why you act as if you were threatened by the proposition that newly improved technologies such as the HSS implementation of the Profoto B1 are increasing very significantly the flash applications that can be adressed without leaf shutter lenses.

As far as having no flash images to share, I don't see why you need to try to discredit me instead of answering the questions, but that's because they are mostly used in private projects that involve people that don't want these images to be shared. But here is one for you. I appologize for the lack of photoshoped tits. ;)



Cheers,
Bernard

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Jim Kasson

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2015, 02:09:59 pm »

The Leica is about $650 cheaper now (with the promotion), and especially much lighter, 498g versus 1.14kg...

Would you happen to have any side by side Cron versus Otus comparisons on your blog?


I do as of a few minutes ago:

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=9042

The following lenses are compared on the a7II:


    Zeiss 85mm f/4 ZM (Leica M mount) Tele-Tessar.
    Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 Otus.
    Leica 90mm f/2 Apo Summicron-M ASPH.
    AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4 G.
    Tamron SP AF Di 90mm f/2.8 Macro.

Jim

Petrus

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2015, 02:44:37 pm »

That bikini babe shot looks totally artificial, I do not believe one moment it was captured at f/1.4. Too much DOF in places. Also plenty, plenty of photoshop (was this the first wave really, no dampness at all on her belly?).
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erstwhile

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2015, 07:19:11 pm »

I must say that I find Synn's condescending attitude, technical inaccuracies, and completely off-topic posts (last I checked this is "Opinion of Zeiss Otus Lenses") to be boorishly unpleasant.

In fact, the other day at home I was trying to decide whether to have left-over spaghetti or Thai for lunch, when I suddenly got an anonymous phone call. The caller said something about how spaghetti and Thai food are both lame, medium format is the best, and Hasselblad rocks his socks, then hung up.

I'm not sure how Synn got my number, but damn.
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JV

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2015, 07:30:47 pm »

I do as of a few minutes ago:

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=9042

The following lenses are compared on the a7II:


    Zeiss 85mm f/4 ZM (Leica M mount) Tele-Tessar.
    Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 Otus.
    Leica 90mm f/2 Apo Summicron-M ASPH.
    AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4 G.
    Tamron SP AF Di 90mm f/2.8 Macro.

Jim

Thanks Jim!

IMO It is really pixel peeping between the Otus and the Leica.  I agree with you though that the first test goes to the Otus and the second one to the Leica.

From a pragmatic practical point of view (no pixel peeping) I would say there's hardly any difference.  

Also the other lenses are not trailing far behind, with the Zeiss ZM 85mm being an alternative tot the Leica that is more than four times cheaper....

If you can live without those 2 additional stops it is a pretty easy call...

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Jim Kasson

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2015, 07:59:20 pm »


IMO It is really pixel peeping between the Otus and the Leica.  I agree with you though that the first test goes to the Otus and the second one to the Leica.

From a pragmatic practical point of view (no pixel peeping) I would say there's hardly any difference.  

Also the other lenses are not trailing far behind, with the Zeiss ZM 85mm being an alternative tot the Leica that is more than four times cheaper....

If you can live without those 2 additional stops it is a pretty easy call...



My thoughts exactly.

Jim

erstwhile

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2015, 08:19:31 pm »

I must say that I find Synn's condescending attitude, technical inaccuracies, and completely off-topic posts (last I checked this is "Opinion of Zeiss Otus Lenses") to be boorishly unpleasant.

Hey guys what are your thoughts on zeiss 55,85 otus lenses? Do you think it's reasonable to shell out 4k for these lenses. here are the options you can get a zeiss otus lens or a h3d-ii 31 with a 80mm ls or a Pentax 645d and some old lenses. Which one would you guys opt for?

A wise master once told me: "to face idiot, you must first become idiot". I have become what I sought to rectify! Forgive me master!

Rest still stands though.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Opinion of zeiss otus lenses
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2015, 05:08:30 pm »

Hi Jim,

AFAIK I know, you also own a Zeiss Apo Sonnar 2.0/135, what is your take on that lens?

The reason I ask is that I am looking for a short telephoto lens for short DoF applications and with very good OOF behaviour at maximum aperture. I don't think I need f/1.4 but f/2 would be nice.

Best regards
Erik

My thoughts exactly.

Jim
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