Topic: Bad times for LEICA S- guess they will be severely hurt (Read 38901 times)

uheck · « **on:** February 09, 2015, 01:59:44 am »

Hi dear Collegues,

what do You think? Guess LEICA will be in trouble on the medium format side of things by Canons recent move.
If the magic Lantern guys open up the EOS firmware, allow 4K video and high ISO/Dual ISO, there´s no need to invest double the budget for almost half the resolution.
They have to react or use another sensor.

Gel · « **Reply #1 on:** February 09, 2015, 04:13:01 am »

Welcome to the forum.

pegelli · « **Reply #2 on:** February 09, 2015, 05:14:22 am »

I think that if they were not hurt by the recent offerings of Nikon and Sony that they will survive this new Canon wave as well. There's much more to IQ than just MP's and additional firmware tricks.

torger · « **Reply #3 on:** February 09, 2015, 05:36:47 am »

Haha

This forum just loves sky-is-falling-down posts for each new DSLR release

Anyway, while forum goers in general are very technically interested I don't think it well mirrors the whole photographic community. Overall it's much less about technical data and more about fuzzy things like if you like the viewfinder, where the buttons sit and the user interface in general, and how you like the "character" of the lenses. A "boring" thing like leaf shutters can be a more important feature than the latest coolest sensor feature.

In a longer term MFD can't fall too much behind in technical features though, while many MFD photographers today come from MF and LF film the future photographers will come from smaller format digital, and I think it's harder to convince that group that they need MFD than MF film photographers.

Ken R · « **Reply #4 on:** February 09, 2015, 06:02:34 am »

If you have ever handled and used a Leica S you will know that no 35mm "threatens" it.

It's not all about pixel count and sensor output measurements.

jotloob · « **Reply #5 on:** February 09, 2015, 06:18:47 am »

Quote from: Ken R on February 09, 2015, 06:02:34 am

If you have ever handled and used a Leica S you will know that no 35mm "threatens" it.

It's not all about pixel count and sensor output measurements.

True enough . But pixel freaks will be extremely pleased . But for how long ? ? ?

BernardLanguillier · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2015, 06:47:49 am »

The Leica S will not be threatened any more by the 5Ds than it was by the D810.

Meaning not at all or tremendously so depending on the needs and priorities of the photographer.

Wasn't it your avatar who claimed 2 days back you had sold your supposedely owned S2?...

Cheers,
Bernard

uheck · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2015, 07:32:41 am »

Quote from: Ken R on February 09, 2015, 06:02:34 am

If you have ever handled and used a Leica S you will know that no 35mm "threatens" it.

It's not all about pixel count and sensor output measurements.

Ken, I have one.The Kodak sensor just doesn´t cut it any more, so does the handling.
In my daily work I MUST have the option to go beyond ISO 800 at least once a month.
If You compare the bad roll off curve in the highlights to the IQ180, charging double for half the pixels just for brand reasons is no longer working.

JV · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2015, 07:39:59 am »

Quote from: uheck on February 09, 2015, 07:32:41 am

Ken, I have one.The Kodak sensor just doesn´t cut it any more, so does the handling.
In my daily work I MUST have the option to go beyond ISO 800 at least once a month.

Then the S Typ 007 should be something for you, shouldn't it? It promises the best high ISO performance in MFD

peterv · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2015, 07:44:56 am »

Quote from: uheck on February 09, 2015, 07:32:41 am

The Kodak sensor just doesn´t cut it any more, so does the handling.
In my daily work I MUST have the option to go beyond ISO 800 at least once a month.

If high ISO is a 'MUST have' for you, why buy the S with CCD? ISO 800 has never been the S's comfort zone, though the new S (007) will most likely do just fine with high ISO.
Personally, I love the look of the Kodak sensor in combination with the S lenses and I'm very happy with the files I get.

As for the handling, I guess that's a personal thing. I like the simplicity of the Leica S. No Gazillion buttons, no clutter, just straight to the point ie, the essential, I believe Leica calls it.

Atina · « **Reply #10 on:** February 09, 2015, 07:56:54 am »

Judging by the S-League website, it seems that Leica is big in Germany, eliciting an 'Obviously' comment. In Europe, as opposed to USA. Perhaps I'm mistaken? Is there another European country that is a bastion of Leica? I guess there it is eternal.

http://s-magazine.photography/ceemes/en/home.html

Why doesn't America like Leica?

But all these photos are too washed out for me, all these muffled colours, desaturated, a lot of darkness, black-and-white, bleached out highlights, a lot of plum colour in the photographs.

I prefer a different style.

araucaria · « **Reply #11 on:** February 09, 2015, 08:33:14 am »

Leica should enable or achieve 4K with global shutter on their backlit sensor cameras, with some serious professional codecs in a RED-camera like body.

voidshatter · « **Reply #12 on:** February 09, 2015, 09:00:33 am »

Leica is tied to their wide angles (M and S). They cannot use the Sony CMOS sensors due to crosstalk issues. What a bad time for Leica meh...

ndevlin · « **Reply #13 on:** February 09, 2015, 09:26:16 am »

The graveyards of the internet are filled with the bones of Leica's doomsayers.

synn · « **Reply #14 on:** February 09, 2015, 09:44:41 am »

Note to OP.

Change "Leica" to "Phase one" in the original post with everything else exactly the same and you will find tonnes of support.

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #15 on:** February 09, 2015, 09:56:10 am »

Leica-S is DSLR, very much different from Leica M, so cross talk issues should be little problem. Pretty sure they could use the Sony sensors if they wanted. But I guess there may be different reasons they use the CMOSIS design. Perhaps their MAESTRO processor is to much integrated with the CMOSIS sensor? Pride? Long term plans?

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: voidshatter on February 09, 2015, 09:00:33 am

Leica is tied to their wide angles (M and S). They cannot use the Sony CMOS sensors due to crosstalk issues. What a bad time for Leica meh...

peterv · « **Reply #16 on:** February 09, 2015, 10:53:02 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr on February 09, 2015, 09:56:10 am

Leica-S is DSLR, very much different from Leica M, so cross talk issues should be little problem. Pretty sure they could use the Sony sensors if they wanted. But I guess there may be different reasons they use the CMOSIS design. Perhaps their MAESTRO processor is to much integrated with the CMOSIS sensor? Pride? Long term plans?

Absolutely right about the 'cross talk', Erik. I guess Leica uses the CMOSIS sensor because they've invested quite a lot in the R&D and there needs to be ROI, of course. By now, they have a lot of expertise with this sensor and they seem confident that it will deliver on the new S.

I for one, am happy that not every cameramaker is choosing Sony as their sensor-supplier. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Sony sensors, I just think variety is good.

voidshatter · « **Reply #17 on:** February 09, 2015, 11:59:37 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr on February 09, 2015, 09:56:10 am

Leica-S is DSLR, very much different from Leica M, so cross talk issues should be little problem. Pretty sure they could use the Sony sensors if they wanted. But I guess there may be different reasons they use the CMOSIS design. Perhaps their MAESTRO processor is to much integrated with the CMOSIS sensor? Pride? Long term plans?

Best regards
Erik

My bad. I wasn't thinking while I typed. The S system has a long flange focal distance so shouldn't be a problem for crosstalk. I should be referring to the diglloyd tests of the da25/4 on the 645Z with poor corner sharpness (we didn't observe that on the 645D). It probably has something to do with sensor cover glass or so.

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #18 on:** February 09, 2015, 12:25:13 pm »

Hi,

It is more like sample variation, I guess. The cover glass is also a beam-angle related issue that DSLRs generally don't have. I would assume that it is included in the optical calculations on newer (non film era) lenses.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: voidshatter on February 09, 2015, 11:59:37 am

My bad. I wasn't thinking while I typed. The S system has a long flange focal distance so shouldn't be a problem for crosstalk. I should be referring to the diglloyd tests of the da25/4 on the 645Z with poor corner sharpness (we didn't observe that on the 645D). It probably has something to do with sensor cover glass or so.

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #19 on:** February 09, 2015, 12:43:36 pm »

Hi,

I don't think Leica's competitive position is challenged by the Canon. Resolution-wise it is very close the 800 Nikons, but it is still selling well. So I don't think they sell them on resolution alone.

The CMOSIS sensor on Leica S (type 7) is a major step in DR and high ISO, AFAIK.

Personally, I feel that large pixels combined with ultrasharp lenses without OLP-filtering is not an ideal combination. More like a recipe for an aliasing machine. I am not shooting Leica-S, but I see a lot of aliasing on my Hasselblad V and P45+ combo, not only on textiles but even on water surfaces, so I feel the problem is real. Stopping down to f/16 works as an OLP-filter and the problem disappears, but so does a lot of apparent sharpness.

From what I have seen, 3.8 micron pixel pitch seems a pretty good compromise, on the S2 that would be 94 MP. That resolution would make the lenses some justice. That pixel size is totally feasible as all 24 MP APS-C cameras have 3.8 micron pixels.

So, in short, I don't think the Canon 5Ds or 5DR are dead ringers for the Leica S, but Leica's choice of pixel size doesn't make any sense to me.

Best regards
Erik

Author Topic: Bad times for LEICA S- guess they will be severely hurt (Read 38901 times)