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Author Topic: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked  (Read 81688 times)

jjj

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #120 on: February 08, 2015, 06:41:00 pm »

I admit that for Landscape photography the higher dynamic range of the Sony sensors really changed the game. It allows many a landscape photographer to achieve the desired results (and sometimes exceed them) without the need to use multiple exposures and/or ND Grad filters in a lot of situations. Architectural photographers have been able to take interior shots where the exterior is perfectly exposed and bring up the interior "exposure" in post without the need to do multiple exposures and/or additional lighting. Wedding and People photographers have been able to make images without the use of fill light.

Doesn't sound like much but the implications of this are HUGE in a big chunk of people's work. Makes the work easier to achieve and faster and it is just another capability one has in the bag.

Of course this capability doesn't solve everything and won't make an image for you or give you good taste but it is just a nice tool to have in the shed.

It is actually one of if not the largest development in digital photography IMHO. The extra dynamic range has changed a lot of photographer's workflow in a lot of jobs and that is game changing.
I have to say, I'd probably be happier with 25mp and a lot more DR for exactly the reasons you mention as I usually shoot outside of a studio, where you can't control the lighting.
Not having to use fill in flash is another extremely handy use for a big DR.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 06:42:34 pm by jjj »
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eronald

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #121 on: February 08, 2015, 08:47:18 pm »

Some of us have been saying for a long time that we want better pixels, not more pixels - by the general reaction to the D5S it would seem that this is now the generally held sense of this forum.

Emund

I admit that for Landscape photography the higher dynamic range of the Sony sensors really changed the game. It allows many a landscape photographer to achieve the desired results (and sometimes exceed them) without the need to use multiple exposures and/or ND Grad filters in a lot of situations. Architectural photographers have been able to take interior shots where the exterior is perfectly exposed and bring up the interior "exposure" in post without the need to do multiple exposures and/or additional lighting. Wedding and People photographers have been able to make images without the use of fill light.

Doesn't sound like much but the implications of this are HUGE in a big chunk of people's work. Makes the work easier to achieve and faster and it is just another capability one has in the bag.

Of course this capability doesn't solve everything and won't make an image for you or give you good taste but it is just a nice tool to have in the shed.

It is actually one of if not the largest development in digital photography IMHO. The extra dynamic range has changed a lot of photographer's workflow in a lot of jobs and that is game changing.

But I agree, in the studio the extra dynamic range is really not required or anytime one can control lighting ratios for the desired result.  And it's not like other cameras have zero dynamic range. Heck they have a lot more than the E6 film I used for years.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #122 on: February 08, 2015, 08:49:17 pm »

Not quite sure what you mean by 'shooting envelope', but is that to exclude MFDSLRs from this list? As they are 'even better' than the cameras you mention.
Not that that is relevant anyway. For the vast majority of photographers the mere 16mp count of say a m43 camera can output better quality than they know what to do with or really need anyway. Heck even the Nikon pro body, the D4s only has 16.2MP.

By shooting envelope I was referring to the fact that I use my D810 one day with an Otus 55mm f1.4 to do high res landscape stitches in cold weather, the next day with a 400mm f2.8 to capture quick moving dancing scenes in the darkish environments typically found during Japanese festivals and the following day in my home studio with a Nikkor 85mm f1.4 AF-S with Profoto D1/B1 strobes.

And the camera is very close to best in class in any of these endeavors. Yes, they are better options for each of these disciplines (MFDSLRs, sports camera 1Dx/D4s,...), but they typically come with a (much) higher price tag and only offer marginal additional value.

I'll be the first to move to something else when it comes out and offer better value, but today I just don't see any camera that does.

Sony is clearly the closest (leaving aside the fast super teles) and I love my a5100 (and can't understand why there aren't more people using this amazing camera btw), but I am not sold yet on the a7x series, although I have had several opportunities to shoot with one thanks to a close friend's kindness.

Compactness can for sure be valuable in some usage scenarios, but I am yet to find a case where my D810+Otus was too bulky/heavy to induce a practical negative impact on the outcome of a shoot. Yes, I would probably see things differently if I were involved in certain types of street photography in the suburbs of Detroit/Paris.

The new Canon 5Ds R could be a candidate replacement for the D810, but I would certainly not see any value in (slightly) more resolution with less DR so I'll wait for actual tests to forge an opinion. The comments floating around clearly aren't very encouraging but I just cannot believe that Canon would have been blind enough to go further in that direction. It would mean they completely misunderstood the reason why many Canon landscape shooters bought a7r or D8x0.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 09:10:56 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Ken R

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #123 on: February 08, 2015, 08:51:04 pm »

Some of us have been saying for a long time that we want better pixels, not more pixels - by the general reaction to the D5S it would seem that this is now the generally held sense of this forum.

Emund


Not only this forum but basically the entire photo enthusiast Forum Community.

I don't mind more pixels in bayer sensors as long as it does not sacrifice the pixel quality, if its get improved then even better.
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jjj

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #124 on: February 08, 2015, 09:55:22 pm »

I'll be the first to move to something else when it comes out and offer better value, but today I just don't see any camera that does.
Ta for explaining what you meant by 'shooting envelope', but what I would say is that what is good value to you and your quite specific preferences/needs may not be to someone else. I'm sure I could justify almost any camera being the best if I change the parameters of what is 'best'. A D810 also comes with a much higher price tag than some people are willing to pay, just like a MF camera is for you.

At end of the day I can still take better pics with my phone than I can with my FF DSLR that is sitting at home because it is too big and heavy to carry around 100% of the time. Though I do have a Sony RX100 III that I carry around all the time in pocket 80% of the time - it's not in my pocket at home. Heck even yesterday on set I used the Sony loads for behind the scenes/stills whilst my bulky canon gear sat in bag. It was simply too much bulky faff to use particularly as I was primarily there to do film making.
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jjj

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #125 on: February 08, 2015, 09:57:51 pm »

Some of us have been saying for a long time that we want better pixels, not more pixels - by the general reaction to the D5S it would seem that this is now the generally held sense of this forum.
Bigger, better, faster, deeper pixels and in a smaller body too!!  ;D
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #126 on: February 08, 2015, 10:21:58 pm »

Ta for explaining what you meant by 'shooting envelope', but what I would say is that what is good value to you and your quite specific preferences/needs may not be to someone else. I'm sure I could justify almost any camera being the best if I change the parameters of what is 'best'. A D810 also comes with a much higher price tag than some people are willing to pay, just like a MF camera is for you.

Yes, I agree, this is specific to me. I have the feeling that my case is pretty generic and that many people shoot in various types of situations for which a high end DSLR is the cheapest overall option, but I will not try to convince you it is. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

tsjanik

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #127 on: February 08, 2015, 10:22:32 pm »

OK, it should be an interesting camera, but I'll be the curmudgeon: why is this thread in the medium format forum?
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eronald

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #128 on: February 08, 2015, 10:29:32 pm »

OK, it should be an interesting camera, but I'll be the curmudgeon: why is this thread in the medium format forum?

Because of the high resolution, which invites comparison to middle-of-the-road MF products.
Inevitably people will ask whether the 5Ds can substitute for an MF system.
And in fact there are eg. tilt-shift lenses available in the Canon system which might make people hesitate even more.
I think we should rename this forum "High resolution photography".

Edmund
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jjj

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #129 on: February 08, 2015, 10:30:41 pm »

Yes, I agree, this is specific to me. I have the feeling that my case is pretty generic and that many people shoot in various types of situations for which a high end DSLR is the cheapest overall option, but I will not try to convince you it is. ;)
Not that generic as the overwhelming majority of photographer's work will not be improved the slightest by using the most expensive model in a product line and it is most certainly not cheaper to buy more expensive in that sort of case either. Good enough is hit at much, much lower price points
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jjj

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #130 on: February 08, 2015, 10:34:07 pm »

Because of the high resolution, which invites comparison to middle-of-the-road MF products.
Inevitably people will ask whether the 5Ds can substitute for an MF system.
And in fact there are eg. tilt-shift lenses available in the Canon system which might make people hesitate even more.
I think we should rename this forum "High resolution photography".
Interesting thought, but there's more to MF than simply high resolution. There's a different way of working/minset because of different bodies, functions and much bigger sensors the FF cameras.
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bcooter

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #131 on: February 09, 2015, 01:07:21 am »

It always comes down to dr with you guys.  What the heck does dr mean anyway and don't you people get tired of talking about it all the time?

I thought Dr. was the guy you went to to get a blood test.

Anyway for you non light guys, 1d3.







IMO

BC

« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 01:16:50 am by bcooter »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #132 on: February 09, 2015, 01:21:13 am »

Hi Edmund,

I agree on all this. I would just add that blending is not that easy, in real world things move. Just as an example tree branches move, and they even move between frames on continuous brackets.

If you are shooting like a tourist it is not really possible to use light modifiers. With landscape it is essentially impossible, but even a church interior would be difficult.

In  those cases a camera with decent DR is much help. DR is essentially limited noise in the darks (the other end of the scale is full well capacity of then sensor). But the DR figure says little about the quality of noise. Canon has been known for pretty ugly noise. That said, I don't have many Canon images but I would say I had little issues with those I have seen.

On the other hand, I can pull a lot of detail in the darks on the Sony.


The full processed image is here:
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/DRArticle/20140617-_DSC4758.jpg

Raw image is here:
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/DRArticle/NativeRaws/_DSC4758.ARW


The small crop here is from a high contrast iamge:


This is the whole image:


And here is the raw file:
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/DRArticle/CanoeStadium/20141109-_DSC6262.dng

Best regards
Erik

J,

 If you are in a a studio, DR is not going to be an issue, nor outside if you have a bunch of lights.
 
 The landscape guys may want to photograph a mountain that is half in the shadows, or the marriage guys may want to film with no lights in a church, the same for tourists,  and then things can get ugly - no older camera can hold both the stained glass and the unlit paintings  in a european church.

  And then you have people who want to film a dumb outdoors scene in natural light without blowing out the sky ...

 I think you're being a bit dismissive of other people's abilities in post - everybody in this forum could probably run a Photoshop course, and those that cannot probably have an assistant who could. But real life and $20000/day crew setups are just not the same thing. If you have the crew and have total control, life is hectic but it is also more forgiving.

 I have the greatest respect for your opinions, and usually you are mostly right, and when you are not right you still make sense. In this vein I would agree that people are badmouthing a very good new camera as if it were unusable; but then this is the MF forum where that new camera is stacked up against just about the best equipment known to man, and the audience is basically saying "let somebody else buy this marvel".

Edmund

PS. I'm not talking from theory here. I've been trying to do available light video documentary shooting and practically any real life setting I go into now has some highlight zones which try to blow out. I just desperately wish for better than 8 bits or for Raw, precisely because I would like to be able to work in post. As a result, my framing is determined by the DR of the camera more than by any aesthetics.

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #133 on: February 09, 2015, 01:37:00 am »

Hi,

I would say we want more and better pixels. Also, don't forget that quantity has a quality of it's own.

Best regards
Erik

Some of us have been saying for a long time that we want better pixels, not more pixels - by the general reaction to the D5S it would seem that this is now the generally held sense of this forum.

Emund

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torger

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #134 on: February 09, 2015, 03:07:58 am »

This is indeed an interesting camera as an MFD alternative. I went from Canon to MFD as a DSLR alternative, so it's natural that you look back when improvements come in areas that made you go to MFD. For me it was mainly two things, 1) resolution, 2) lens movements. It was not dynamic range. I happen to like gray skies ;). After I got MFD I've learnt to appreciate other features like distortion-free lenses and I've fallen in love with the old-school workflow and the mindset you get when you have a slow camera.

I don't deny though that dynamic range can be a game changer for some shooting styles, we tend to look at our own little box and think that everyone else should shoot like ourself and appreciate the same features we do, but people have all sorts of different shooting styles and tastes which means it varies which aspects that are important. This new Canon seems to be really good in virtually all aspects except for DR where Canon still holds last place in the race, so it's natural that aspect gets most attention.

I already have a Canon system with some nice lenses including the TS-E 24 II, but this new resolution increase won't be enough to make me go back using it again for my landscape photography. I have seven lenses in my MFD system 35 - 180mm, all with plenty movements and tilt and swing and good to excellent corner-to-corner sharpness. Canon's lens lineup doesn't have that. When the TS-E 45 and TS-E 90 gets updated it will look better, I still won't have the flexibility of my Techno+Digitar system, but maybe flexible enough and sharp enough. Moving from seven to three lenses won't be great, but well, you can always crop.

From my perspective tech cameras are moving in a boring direction, they're slowly becoming like a "large A7r", more limited movements, retrofocus lenses, all being about sharpness and resolution nothing about retaining the "large format spirit", becoming more and more expensive too. I won't be getting an Alpa FPS with Digaron lenses, if my current Kodak is the last sensor that can shoot true large format style lenses this is probably going to be the last MFD back I own, and then the next landscape photography system is most likely going to be a Canon system for me, or maybe mirrorless of a different brand with adapters to Canon lenses. I hope though that MFD makers will make a fantastic save and actually start making a back which makes the unique symmetric lens designs possible again. As it seems that's entirely up to Sony now though.

Although I'm sure Hassy H and 645DF+ are great systems for studio and fashion photographers, my interest in them is very weak. I wouldn't use such a camera for landscape photography, if I can't have movements the robust Pentax seems more suited then (and better priced), and in fact I bought my Hassy H (I wanted its back) from a landscape photographer that switched to Pentax 645z. Canon has movements in the TS-E 17 and 24, and although it may take some time they're likely to update the 45 and 90, so in terms of landscape photography with movements Canon is in the front-line behind the tech cameras, from my point of view that's their main strength.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 03:34:09 am by torger »
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Gel

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #135 on: February 09, 2015, 04:18:51 am »

High Dr is overvalued, yet underrated.

It's not until you get a cam which has 5 stops of clean push that you notice the uses. There's soem Canon guys over on the rumor forums berating the dr of the Nikons and have never used an Exmor sensor in their lives.

(I shoot Canon and Pentax)

torger

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #136 on: February 09, 2015, 04:40:22 am »

High Dr is overvalued, yet underrated.

It's not until you get a cam which has 5 stops of clean push that you notice the uses. There's soem Canon guys over on the rumor forums berating the dr of the Nikons and have never used an Exmor sensor in their lives.

(I shoot Canon and Pentax)

Heh, although I've shot exmor stuff for testing reasons and have a zillion files for the raw conversion development work I haven't used it in my real photography. I don't know if I dare to, perhaps I start wanting it...  ;)

My images often look like the one attached though, and there movements and indeed resolution is a stronger need than dynamic range.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 04:47:17 am by torger »
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pedro39photo

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #137 on: February 09, 2015, 05:24:51 am »

Last 3 years spend to much on High MP war, and just 20% of my clients saw or care about the difference against my 5DM3. Some H3D 39MP beautiful files got wasted in poor large prints made in a run for 2 or 3 days of booth fairs...
I make my run in DMF - mamiya zd - H3D 22MP - H3DII 39MP
Now the problem its not about resolution its about motion ! i saw in the last 2 years a swift in my clients to the motion-movies.
My industrial clients now don't have large prints on there fair booths they have LCDs with movies !!!
I go to the shopping mall today and the fashion shops don't have beautiful large prints ! they have large vertical LCDs with fashion videos!!!
There will hallways be room for big resolution photography, but in the corporate business-some fashion i see a swift for more video/motion

Maybe its time to leave the my money on a 8MP cinema camera... 
Best regards
PN
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hjulenissen

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #138 on: February 09, 2015, 06:31:19 am »

Not only this forum but basically the entire photo enthusiast Forum Community.

I don't mind more pixels in bayer sensors as long as it does not sacrifice the pixel quality, if its get improved then even better.
I don't know if I am interpreting you correctly, but I completely disagree with the idea that "pixel quality" is a sensible thing to strive after for photographers. It is probably sensible for sensor designers.

For photographers, I'd argue that "image quality" whatever that means is a lot more relevant than "pixel quality". Often the two are highly correlated, but they may not always be.

If I was offered a camera with more pixels, worse per-pixel quality but better image quality than I currently have, I would take it. Would not most of us?

-h
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Ken R

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #139 on: February 09, 2015, 06:46:49 am »

I don't know if I am interpreting you correctly, but I completely disagree with the idea that "pixel quality" is a sensible thing to strive after for photographers. It is probably sensible for sensor designers.

For photographers, I'd argue that "image quality" whatever that means is a lot more relevant than "pixel quality". Often the two are highly correlated, but they may not always be.

If I was offered a camera with more pixels, worse per-pixel quality but better image quality than I currently have, I would take it. Would not most of us?

-h

Obviously pixel quality is just one of several factors contributing to the image quality, optics affect a LOT also raw image processing and overall post-processing. Never mind technique and light and like mentioned, everything infront of the lens!

But, the better the Pixel quality the more options one has to achieve the desired results. You can add noise later and screw up the image in many ways you like but the RAW file is the Materia Prima.

BC, C'Mon Man! Light colored clothes, light colored horse and light colored sand, that is a whole bunch of natural fill light right there!  ;D
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