Thom Hogan on declining camera sales

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...I photograph the people or maybe the dodgy vendors...

Glad to see I am not the only one with the same reaction in encounters with you

[jjj]

You've misunderstood the situation again. The snap-happy tourists are not like myself. I stand back from the object I'm photographing. I don't place myself right in front of it, partially obscuring it. When a bus-load of tourists do that, one after the other, it's pretty frustrating, so I just walk away.

You are a tourist. You are taking photos. You are just like all of them, bar the framing of the shot. Their pictures make them happy, your pictures make you happy. Thinking you are better than them however is just snobbery. Others may look at your pics and sneer at them in a similar way because you are a mere tourist, whilst they are proper 'travellers'. 

I'm aware of the process of stacking multiple shots in Photoshop, each shot slightly different from the other because someone has moved. But that process is too tedious for me. I'm not a gear-head, ya know! 

Possibly less tedious than and far quicker than waiting for tourists to clear a scene. That way you get to see more of the places you visit and it's quite a quick process in PS.

[jjj]

Glad to see I am not the only one with the same reaction in encounters with you

Interesting that you equate yourself with someone who is breaking the law and acts in a threatening and unpleasant manner without provocation. 

[AFairley]

A separate GPS device is an order of magnitude more useful for its designed purpose.

Exactly!  But similarly, if all I want it for is to geotag, the in-camera solution is superior for it's designed purpose.

[Misirlou]

Getting a GPS fix from cold can take quite a few minutes. Leaving the GPS tracking all the time means that there's a much greater chance of having the right data available when you turn the camera on to take a shot.
I doubt anyone wanting to use GPS would want to have to wait excessively for the camera to get a fix before allowing a shot to be taken, or waiting until it had got a fix before writing the EXIF data and being able to take the next shot, or getting home and finding no GPS data at all.

Yes, enabling a GPS feature would hit battery life, but maybe not so badly it would cause problems.

That hasn't been a real problem for me for a long time. The GPS chips that are so common in phones and so forth now have an extremely fast time to first fix. I've never seen the 6D take more than a few seconds to fix, even after I've travelled the whole way across the continent. I'd really prefer they add a custom function or something that would allow for camera off = GPS off.

[Ray]

You are a tourist. You are taking photos. You are just like all of them, bar the framing of the shot. Their pictures make them happy, your pictures make you happy. Thinking you are better than them however is just snobbery. Others may look at your pics and sneer at them in a similar way because you are a mere tourist, whilst they are proper 'travellers'. 

Nonsense! Such people are much, much better than me......in their capacity to display extremes of narcissism and vanity.

I'm simply making the point that something is seriously awry when people travel the world to visit exotic and fascinating locations, yet still find their own face more fascinating than the wonders they behold. I call it narcissism, or extreme vanity.

Here is the relevant dictionary definition of narcissism, in case you are still confused. 

Narcissism: an excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one's physical appearance.

It's not without reason that the 'selfie stick' is sometimes referred to as the 'narcissism wand'. 

[SZRitter]

I'm simply making the point that something is seriously awry when people travel the world to visit exotic and fascinating locations, yet still find their own face more fascinating than the wonders they behold. I call it narcissism, or extreme vanity.

It could also be that including one's self in the photo heightens our memories of being at that location.

Also, we are hardwired to recognize faces, and when we do, we form a bigger, more human bond with said image. I am beginning to think, for the sake of one's self and for friends, selfies are not really that bad, you just need to keep them in the proper context. Is it really any different than setting the self timer on the camera than running into the frame?

[Some Guy]

Nonsense! Such people are much, much better than me......in their capacity to display extremes of narcissism and vanity.

I'm simply making the point that something is seriously awry when people travel the world to visit exotic and fascinating locations, yet still find their own face more fascinating than the wonders they behold. I call it narcissism, or extreme vanity.

Here is the relevant dictionary definition of narcissism, in case you are still confused. 

Narcissism: an excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one's physical appearance.

It's not without reason that the 'selfie stick' is sometimes referred to as the 'narcissism wand'. 

Interesting.  Could be right in that a four pound DSLR is a bit cumbersome for those engaged in narcissistic behavior to use on a wand.

Seems the behavior is leading to cell phone photography and could make DLSRs obsolete if one looks at sites like Tumblr and Instagram where there appears to be some self-indulgent behaviors that does not make a DSLR the tool of choice for the upcoming generation.  Don't know if it is a fad or what.

Friend always hands me his DSLR to "Take his picture" which I find odd (Can't put it on a selfie-stick.).  He posts himself all over the web and his own daughters tell him he posts more selfies of himself than all their girlfriends combined.  Got so bad I blocked him on FB too, and FB may be part of this behavior too.  Egos gone wild perhaps.

SG

[kirkt]

One caveat to the built-in GPS that directly embeds location data into EXIF (or an attached external unit that permits direct embedding) is the fact that, if the data are incorrect (for whatever reason), you will have incorrect data embedded in your image.  While it may not happen frequently, the caveat is included in Canon's manuals for GPS enabled cameras (like the 6DWG) and their external GPS logger.  If you at least log a redundant GPS track (with your phone, or a GPS) you have back up.  If you roll without backup, it would seem that embedded GPS data is a convenience but not a necessity.  Interestingly enough, the 6D is offered in two variations, one with GPS and WIFI and one without.  It appears that this is for reasons related to the legality of devices containing GPS in certain export markets.  I have no idea if this is a burden to Canon's manufacturing and distribution practice, but it seems to indicate that it is possible to have it both ways.  Another interesting aspect of this is that unscrupulous retailers apparently have advertised 6D's with GPS and WIFI (the 6DWG) at too-good-to-be-true prices and then sent the unwary buyer the 6DN (which does not have GPS and WIFI).  Definitely a potential downside to having multiple flavors of the same model.  Caveat emptor. 

Look at that, I started and ended a paragraph with the word caveat.

kirk

[kirktuck]

A different "Kirk" responding here. The statement was made that "people want GPS in their cameras." I am a people and as a studio photographer I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in having GPS in my cameras. The idea that, when traveling, I will want to know the exact location in which I stood when taking each of my photographs is laughable and silly to the extreme. If I go to Lisbon and shoot in Lisbon I don't need to know which cobblestone I stood on the make an image.  What the heck do people do with all that worthless data attached to their files? What is the intended use of it all? Is geo-tagging really a popular hobby? Why don't any of the many photographers I know personally participate in geo-tagging?

I am sure there are a few specialities in photography that might benefit from location data, like geographers documenting geography, etc. But Skipper riding around on his bicycle taking snapshots? Give me a break.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...Why don't any of the many photographers I know personally participate in geo-tagging?...

Because they are too busy actually taking photographs, instead of anally cataloguing them?

[Isaac]

I am a people and as a studio photographer I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in having GPS in my cameras.

You are not the only people.

Is geo-tagging really a popular hobby? Why don't any of the many photographers I know personally participate in geo-tagging?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity

[SZRitter]

Because they are too busy actually taking photographs, instead of anally cataloguing them?

Funny thing, if it is a completely automated system that you don't have to manage, and just automatically collects the data without any input from you, it doesn't take any time away from shooting and cataloging. So, yeah, this is a completely pointless argument.

Don't get me wrong, I think you are a great guy, and generally I value your advice, but right now, you just sound like someone completely resistant to change. It is nothing more than an extra data point that you have available to you, and has no impact on your ability to photograph something (unless you run out of batteries, I'll give you that argument).

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... has no impact on your ability to photograph something...

Exactly, superfluous

I am not resistant to change in general. I am using the latest technology (that I can afford). Actually, my current camera (Canon 6D) does have GPS and wi-fi. Just that I keep GPS off.

There are many useful improvements in photographic technology over the years, and I am happy to embrace most of them. When they actually do something for photography. This one, imho, doesn't. Whoever wants it, more power to them.

[SZRitter]

Exactly, superfluous

Superfluous in the act of taking the photo, yes.

Superfluous in the act of categorizing, the act of searching, or the act remembering details, not really. Like I said, it's just another data point that you can utilize later.

I think we should just agree to disagree. That said, you should also have a valid argument in, being a person who doesn't want GPS, having to pay for the module you leave turned off.

[Telecaster]

More from Thom on camera sales & what he thinks could restart growth:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-market-for-interchangea.html

A large part of me doesn't actually care much about such issues. I've got great photo tools at hand, in fact the best I've ever had. I could spend the rest of my life using my current gear and not feel in any way held back by it. But of course the tech geek part of me loves the endorphin rush I get from a new camera or lens that offers more.    So on we go.

-Dave-

[jjj]

GPS data is no more superfluous than keywording or naming files, they are all provide useful information that helps with finding photos [amongst other uses]
I can usually visually recall where I've taken something and also have a very good memory for places, so finding images via say LR Map module can be very useful if say I cannot recall other details to locate a shot or that's simply the easiest way to locate something.

People not seeing a need for it is fine and dandy. Sneering and mocking at those who do find it useful only makes them look stupid.

I think we should just agree to disagree. That said, you should also have a valid argument in, being a person who doesn't want GPS, having to pay for the module you leave turned off.

He's not really paying for GPS. Very, very few people use all the abilities of any device or software. So they should stop moaning that they are paying for things that they do not need as these very things you don't require usually help to bring the price down as items are useful for far more people as a result.
I have no idea why people waste so much time and energy complaining about things they are not going to use, but others happily do.

[jjj]

More from Thom on camera sales & what he thinks could restart growth:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-market-for-interchangea.html

From article
"At the moment, the two big ILC companies, Canon and Nikon, are simply rising and falling with the water level. If they switched (and could switch) all of their DSLRs into mirrorless cameras its somewhat unlikely to provide them with an upside in terms of sales."
People probably said similar at the beginning of digital. Currently like early digital results EVF's as used in mirrorless are not quite as good as showing reality as OVFs but they have some great advantages. Heck after briefly playing with some EVFs I found my OVFs old fashioned and clunky in comparison.

[dwswager]

More from Thom on camera sales & what he thinks could restart growth:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-market-for-interchangea.html

A large part of me doesn't actually care much about such issues. I've got great photo tools at hand, in fact the best I've ever had. I could spend the rest of my life using my current gear and not feel in any way held back by it. But of course the tech geek part of me loves the endorphin rush I get from a new camera or lens that offers more.    So on we go.

"...If I’m right about what the disruption needs to be, both Canon and Nikon are poorly equipped to create it, as it will mostly differences in software, not hardware, that define future cameras from present ones."

This is the most important statement in the article, IMHO.  Which means processing capability and the onboard power necessary to drive it are the limiting conditions for this disruption to take place.  Working in millitary technology, ever since we exceeded the processing threshold that made Assembly code and custom ASICSs unnecessary, almost all the good innovation has been implemented via software.

[armand]

One way to get around it is to have a compact or phone with GPS with you. Take a shot at each location with the GPS enabled, than batch update the location on your "serious" shots. Shouldn't take long if you don't move often. That is if your serious camera doesn't have GPS, otherwise an extra battery will be probably lighter.