I just reviewed the Pentax 645z

[Gel]

Hi everyone, for any that are interested I just published a series of posts on the Pentax 645z.

It isn't hugely technical but covers weddings and portraiture, CCD vs CMOS, Dynamic range, Image quality, Weatherproofing and the Flash solutions.
If after reading you want to know anything else I've otherwise missed please ask away in the comments.

http://chrisgilesphotography.com/blog/pentax-645z-review-pt1-the-journey/

[ndevlin]

Chris,

Terrific review. I have a pretty good sense of how much work these are to write ( ), so thank you so much for taking the time. It's always nice to see results and impressions from real working pros.

Two things: if you find yourself hitting min focusing distance and are frustrated - invested in set of the extension tubes. I got the triple-set on eBay for under $200.  The smallest in particular is very useful with the 150.  No AF, mind you..

As re: profiles.  You're absolutely right that Adobe Standard is a dogshit profile.  I have had better luck with the Huelight profiles and even the embedded.  Adobe Std v.2 is better.  Not sure if that's widely available yet or will be in an update. 

What profiles are you using for skintones in studio?

- N.

[Gel]

Chris,

Terrific review. I have a pretty good sense of how much work these are to write ( ), so thank you so much for taking the time. It's always nice to see results and impressions from real working pros.

Two things: if you find yourself hitting min focusing distance and are frustrated - invested in set of the extension tubes. I got the triple-set on eBay for under $200.  The smallest in particular is very useful with the 150.  No AF, mind you..

As re: profiles.  You're absolutely right that Adobe Standard is a dogshit profile.  I have had better luck with the Huelight profiles and even the embedded.  Adobe Std v.2 is better.  Not sure if that's widely available yet or will be in an update. 

What profiles are you using for skintones in studio?

- N.

Thanks!

I have the full extension tube set (and paid roughly the same as you) but like the teleconvertors, the problem I have is that they don't allow AF to pass through like the Hasselblad do.
I'm not using anything other than Pentax embedded for studio. I also have the Huelight profiles too which are good but I'm trying to develop my own colour profiles for Portrait, Landscape and so on.

Studio isn't a thing I do much of tbh but I'll be looking into Adobe STD2 now I know it exists.

[torger]

Seems like the Hassy and Phase advantage is much tied to the better default color in their raw converters. Photographers starting to make their own profiles must be their worst nightmare

[eronald]

Seems like the Hassy and Phase advantage is much tied to the better default color in their raw converters. Photographers starting to make their own profiles must be their worst nightmare

At least Adobe doesn't have to worry about freeware developers being any better than them at profiling

Edmund

[ndevlin]

Before this runs away as a thread on profiling rather than on Chris' excellent review, let me just say it's not a big deal. The embedded Pentax profile is fine. Adobe v2 is pretty good, and for many situations I like the Huelight ones that cost me like $25.

What I was getting at is that, if Chris made a profile, I might try to sweet talk him into sharing it  

With a good working knowledge of LR and/or a good retoucher, the 645z gives up nothing to the Phase or Hassy backs.  And you don't have to use that infernal Phase software  

Ok, back to talking about Chris' review.

...to which end I should say how happy I was to discover that I was not the only person who felt a tinge of fear everytime I took the H4D out of the studio and into the wild.  The solidity and sealing of the 645z make me not even think about it.  Glad to know it's not just me.


- N.

[torger]

Considering the hassy the detachable back has the advantage of being possible to be used on a tech cam, so it's not only about cleaning. But I see your point that if you're using it for the SLR the point of having a detachable back is weak, bacause you can't use it on any other camera system anyway.

The other comment I have is on being without AA-filter, there are a few of us that think it actually reduces image quality rather than improving it, but we are indeed few that's why manufacturers are dropping it.

[Gel]

At least Adobe doesn't have to worry about freeware developers being any better than them at profiling

Edmund

 

[Joe Towner]

2 weeks for 148 pounds?!!?  Man, I'm going broke hiring one as much as I have.  I will attest to the build - I had it sitting in a downpour for an hour shooting stills and video of the Christmas Ships here in Seattle, then took it snowboarding the next day.

I'm always in awe of folks who won't take a medium format system out of the studio - my poor Hass has been everywhere with me, and as soon as I get enough work I'm adding a Z.

[Gel]

2 weeks for 148 pounds?!!?  Man, I'm going broke hiring one as much as I have.  I will attest to the build - I had it sitting in a downpour for an hour shooting stills and video of the Christmas Ships here in Seattle, then took it snowboarding the next day.

I'm always in awe of folks who won't take a medium format system out of the studio - my poor Hass has been everywhere with me, and as soon as I get enough work I'm adding a Z.

I fell over when I found that deal. They do all sorts of stuff at that rate, FS7's, C100's....

[Ken R]

Hi everyone, for any that are interested I just published a series of posts on the Pentax 645z.

It isn't hugely technical but covers weddings and portraiture, CCD vs CMOS, Dynamic range, Image quality, Weatherproofing and the Flash solutions.
If after reading you want to know anything else I've otherwise missed please ask away in the comments.

http://chrisgilesphotography.com/blog/pentax-645z-review-pt1-the-journey/

Really nice review. Thanks for posting it. I like your take on the camera.

I love the look of the Hassy H lenses and of course the Rodenstock HR-W on the Arca so that is why I prefer to keep using those systems with my IQ160 back. For weddings the reduced iso range on the CCD backs is really limiting but since I do not do weddings it is a non issue for me. Although the IQ160 has a very nice sensor+ mode (pixel binning) and I have used it with beautiful results at iso 800 but if I depended on high iso for most of my work it would not be my first choice obviously.

It is nice to see pretty amazing performance with the Sony 50mp sensor. The dynamic range depth specially looks just jaw dropping. The color is a matter of taste I guess and can be adjusted. The stock profiles for the Phase Backs do look better so out of the box it is a superior choice for color. But like you said the 645z is the only integrated and weathersealed unit. (Although I have not had an issue with the Arca and IQ back out in the wild in not so nice weather and that system has to be the least sealed in existence but it does make me a bit nervous at times no doubt)

I still have the 35mm A lens (from when I had the 645D) and it is a fine lens. Specially cool how small it is and covers full frame 645. 

[JV]

Hi everyone, for any that are interested I just published a series of posts on the Pentax 645z.

It isn't hugely technical but covers weddings and portraiture, CCD vs CMOS, Dynamic range, Image quality, Weatherproofing and the Flash solutions.
If after reading you want to know anything else I've otherwise missed please ask away in the comments.

http://chrisgilesphotography.com/blog/pentax-645z-review-pt1-the-journey/

Thanks.   I enjoyed reading this. 

Over time I never believe Hasselblad will be able to compete with Pentax.  The price difference ($8.5K versus $27.5K) for a camera with the same sensor is just too ridiculous for words...

Just out of curiosity, do you miss the 100mm?  The 35mm is a good lens but not an outstanding performer.  The 100mm on the other hand is a pretty awesome portrait lens.

Joris.

[eronald]

Thanks.   I enjoyed reading this.  

Over time I never believe Hasselblad will be able to compete with Pentax.  The price difference ($8.5K versus $27.5K) for a camera with the same sensor is just too ridiculous for words...

Just out of curiosity, do you miss the 100mm?  The 35mm is a good lens but not an outstanding performer.  The 100mm on the other hand is a pretty awesome portrait lens.

Joris.

The Hassy design is now amortised, the new sensors from Sony easy to integrate; they could lower their body prices to the same as Pentax, at least as far as the body goes. Make their money on lenses.

Of course the dealers will weep. And they'll have to cut down on the marketing expenses, calendar models, and overpaid execs.


Edmund

[bcooter]

The Hassy design is now amortised, the new sensors from Sony easy to integrate; they could lower their body prices to the same as Pentax, at least as far as the body goes. Make their money on lenses.

Of course the dealers will weep. And they'll have to cut down on the marketing expenses, calendar models, and overpaid execs.


Edmund

Edmund,

You've sung this song before.

First do you know what the model's photographers or marketing expense of Hasselblad is?

I'll bet the model's get paid virtually nothing, as it's considered self promotion, same for the photographers as Hasselblad probably receives 1,000 images a week from photographers looking for publicity.

In regards to marketing, if you stop marketing brands die.  Period.   

Apple has the highest net worth of any company in the world, (short of governments) and the world of finance will tell you Apple is more of a marketing company than a tech company.

Now to executives.  I don't know what they make at Hasselblad, don't know if it's public knowledge, but to you what is overpaid? 

Are Sony execs overpaid?  They're bleeding red ink, but fire the execs and what do you really think would happen to Sony? 

It wouldn't be pretty, but that's irrelevant because the market and the bottom line will decide who keeps their job, regardless of position.

Capitalism has it's drawbacks, failures, problems and can be unfair, but nothing breeds innovation like competitive commerce and we all benefit.

But keep in mind, in the church of business the customer does rule.   

If the Pentax is a better camera than anything it competes with, is serviced properly, is marketed to the correct buying segment then it will succeed and the other makers will have to either up their game, or lower their prices.

But I'm curious.   Do you ever plan on buying a Pentax, or any medium format camera?  Because if you do, then the makers will listen to your checkbook, but if not, they won't.



IMO

BC

[eronald]

J,

 I see you're having a not so good day. I feel for you. Really.

 You are doubtless right in that "lifestyle photographic products" need heavy marketing to sell. Leica is living proof of that.

 But the best "real product" marketing is word of mouth. And the 645Z is sure getting a lot of that these days

Edmund

Edmund,

You've sung this song before.

First do you know what the model's photographers or marketing expense of Hasselblad is?

I'll bet the model's get paid virtually nothing, as it's considered self promotion, same for the photographers as Hasselblad probably receives 1,000 images a week from photographers looking for publicity.

In regards to marketing, if you stop marketing brands die.  Period.   

Apple has the highest net worth of any company in the world, (short of governments) and the world of finance will tell you Apple is more of a marketing company than a tech company.

Now to executives.  I don't know what they make at Hasselblad, don't know if it's public knowledge, but to you what is overpaid? 

Are Sony execs overpaid?  They're bleeding red ink, but fire the execs and what do you really think would happen to Sony? 

It wouldn't be pretty, but that's irrelevant because the market and the bottom line will decide who keeps their job, regardless of position.

Capitalism has it's drawbacks, failures, problems and can be unfair, but nothing breeds innovation like competitive commerce and we all benefit.

But keep in mind, in the church of business the customer does rule.   

If the Pentax is a better camera than anything it competes with, is serviced properly, is marketed to the correct buying segment then it will succeed and the other makers will have to either up their game, or lower their prices.

But I'm curious.   Do you ever plan on buying a Pentax, or any medium format camera?  Because if you do, then the makers will listen to your checkbook, but if not, they won't.



IMO

BC

[torger]

Every time I've heard someone from inside Hasselblad say something about the Pentax 645z, it's along the lines that we know how much things cost to manufacture and the Pentax is so low priced that either they must lose money per unit or the earn very little and thus it's only a matter of time before they need to up the prices. They also say that "according to our sources" it doesn't sell very well.

I have no idea if it's true, or if it's false and Hassy thinks it true, or if it's just wishful thinking from their side and a way to defend their own pricing.

In any case I'm really really curious about knowing the truth; how good business the Pentax 645z is for them, does it sell well, do they make or lose money on it etc, but those things are not easy to find out... do they ever publish sales figures, or is there any large dealer that has published any figures which could be a lead?

It's interesting though that both Hassy and Phase One has quite cheap entry level offers with the 40 MP CCD. If what Hassy says is true they must be selling it with loss, becasue sensor cost difference is not *that* large, sensors are in the $1 - $3k range for manufacturers, if the most expensive even reaches $3k. I know the 50MP CCD costs $1.6k because that price is in the open from the current manufacturer, On Semiconductor.

[eronald]

This reminds me of the Apple vs. Android situation in the phone market. "Officially" Apple own the smartphone market and are the only ones making a profit. But there are certainly a lot of those "inferior" Android phones out there, they are cheap, and they do work

Edmund

Every time I've heard someone from inside Hasselblad say something about the Pentax 645z, it's along the lines that we know how much things cost to manufacture and the Pentax is so low priced that either they must lose money per unit or the earn very little and thus it's only a matter of time before they need to up the prices. They also say that "according to our sources" it doesn't sell very well.

I have no idea if it's true, or if it's false and Hassy thinks it true, or if it's just wishful thinking from their side and a way to defend their own pricing.

In any case I'm really really curious about knowing the truth; how good business the Pentax 645z is for them, does it sell well, do they make or lose money on it etc, but those things are not easy to find out... do they ever publish sales figures, or is there any large dealer that has published any figures which could be a lead?

It's interesting though that both Hassy and Phase One has quite cheap entry level offers with the 40 MP CCD. If what Hassy says is true they must be selling it with loss, becasue sensor cost difference is not *that* large, sensors are in the $1 - $3k range for manufacturers, if the most expensive even reaches $3k. I know the 50MP CCD costs $1.6k because that price is in the open from the current manufacturer, On Semiconductor.

[torger]

My guess is that the truth is that Hassy is stuck with the dealer-centric business model that requires high prices, and that their current manufacturing facilities can't do high volume with lower manufacturing cost. They probably don't sell the 40MPs with loss, but they could not sell all cameras for that price, unless they can sell more volume. The CFV-50c is a little bit of a special case, they know it won't sell to the main audience, studio professionals, as it's old-school V, so they don't destroy any business by selling it at a lower price, perhaps even many online sales. Rumors I've heard from Japan where it cost $10k for a while is that they could not produce in the same rate it was sold, which does not necessarily mean huge sales numbers, but that their manufacturing capacity is not ready for selling in volume.

To sell volume one needs to sell to enthusiasts, and frankly while the Pentax lacks in some studio pro features it has a much better suited feature set for enthusiasts, it feels more DSLR-like in handling which is a good thing if you want to sell volume. If Pentax does catch up in the studio pro features too, it may start stealing sales in Hassy's and Phase's key markets.

Although I would certainly love such a development, the response will not be to adapt a high volume low cost sales model - that would require very strong financial backing which these companies do not have. Instead it will be to find new niche markets, like luxury, industrial, reproduction, and indeed tech camera (Phase i early out with its luxury + tech combo in the A series).

[eronald]

These discussions go round and round. Let's see what people on this forum buy, and how it goes with MF sales ...
At the moment I'd say the takeup on the 645Z is pretty good.

Edmund

My guess is that the truth is that Hassy is stuck with the dealer-centric business model that requires high prices, and that their current manufacturing facilities can't do high volume with lower manufacturing cost. They probably don't sell the 40MPs with loss, but they could not sell all cameras for that price, unless they can sell more volume. The CFV-50c is a little bit of a special case, they know it won't sell to the main audience, studio professionals, as it's old-school V, so they don't destroy any business by selling it at a lower price, perhaps even many online sales. Rumors I've heard from Japan where it cost $10k for a while is that they could not produce in the same rate it was sold, which does not necessarily mean huge sales numbers, but that their manufacturing capacity is not ready for selling in volume.

To sell volume one needs to sell to enthusiasts, and frankly while the Pentax lacks in some studio pro features it has a much better suited feature set for enthusiasts, it feels more DSLR-like in handling which is a good thing if you want to sell volume. If Pentax does catch up in the studio pro features too, it may start stealing sales in Hassy's and Phase's key markets.

Although I would certainly love such a development, the response will not be to adapt a high volume low cost sales model - that would require very strong financial backing which these companies do not have. Instead it will be to find new niche markets, like luxury, industrial, reproduction, and indeed tech camera (Phase i early out with its luxury + tech combo in the A series).

[Gel]

Thanks.   I enjoyed reading this.  

Just out of curiosity, do you miss the 100mm?  The 35mm is a good lens but not an outstanding performer.  The 100mm on the other hand is a pretty awesome portrait lens.

Joris.

I do miss it, but the money I sold it for paid for the D-FA 55mm, 120mm Macro, 150mm x2 convertor and a full set of extension tubes.

I would like to get my hands on the 90mm Macro though as I feel it'll be a good replacement. (The 120mm is very close for framing but I'd like 2. .
I'd also like the 28-25mm D-FA as well but they are something I can't afford.

I'd email the UK rep to ask but I don't know who to contact. There's a big Iceland trip potentially happening (full circuit of the Island) and I'd like to have those lenses there.

Every time I've heard someone from inside Hasselblad say something about the Pentax 645z, it's along the lines that we know how much things cost to manufacture and the Pentax is so low priced that either they must lose money per unit or the earn very little and thus it's only a matter of time before they need to up the prices. They also say that "according to our sources" it doesn't sell very well.

I have no idea if it's true, or if it's false and Hassy thinks it true, or if it's just wishful thinking from their side and a way to defend their own pricing.

In any case I'm really really curious about knowing the truth; how good business the Pentax 645z is for them, does it sell well, do they make or lose money on it etc, but those things are not easy to find out... do they ever publish sales figures, or is there any large dealer that has published any figures which could be a lead?

It's interesting though that both Hassy and Phase One has quite cheap entry level offers with the 40 MP CCD. If what Hassy says is true they must be selling it with loss, becasue sensor cost difference is not *that* large, sensors are in the $1 - $3k range for manufacturers, if the most expensive even reaches $3k. I know the 50MP CCD costs $1.6k because that price is in the open from the current manufacturer, On Semiconductor.

I don't think Ricoh is losing money here.