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Author Topic: canon ?  (Read 48840 times)

Hans Kruse

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #140 on: December 29, 2014, 10:39:20 am »

While it is nice to know that the D810 still outperforms even with the smaller, cheaper ($1399) AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/4 VR  than the 5DmkIII with the $2199 Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM Lens, I think the link and attached screen shot is what you were intending to post.

DxOMark comparison Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM and AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED IF VRII



It was on purpose that I included the Nikon 70-200 f/4 VR since this is the best performing Nikon 70-200. It was about price since clearly an f/2.8 lens is more expensive than an f/4 lens. Canon has a similar lens that is slightly less performing than the f/2.8.

If you look at the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 VRII on the D3X which is 24MP and the Canon 70-200 f/2.8L IS II on the 22.8MP 5D mkIII you will see the difference in lens quality

Hans Kruse

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #141 on: December 29, 2014, 10:45:22 am »

Hi,

As a bystander I would say that Canon makes some very nice optics. Many of the L lenses were famous. Canon had some weak offerings in the 16-35 area, but that has been cured by the 16-35/4 and the 24-70/2.8LII is well known to be excellent and so are the 17 and 24 T&S lenses.

Where I feel Canon is lacking is the base ISO high resolution area, where they can not match the clean shadows of the Sony sensors used by Nikon and others. They also lack a high resolution full frame body.

What I would say Hans Kruse's examples show is that excellent results are achievable with Canon. I would also say that 20+ MP is good enough for A2 size prints, printing larger I would expect some benefits from higher resolution bodies.

Anyway, post processing technique matters a lot. I would guess that a well executed and processed 20+ MP image from Canon cameras can impress even in large sizes.

Subject and interpretation matters mostly more than technical quality.

BTW, not everyone uses tripod and low ISO. With high ISOs the DR advantage of the Sony sensors is probably mostly gone.

Best regards
Erik

Thanks Erik,
That's a nice summary of the Canon situation. As you know I shoot both the Canon and Nikon system and I do grab the D810 more and more in the extreme situations, but in other situations I'm very happy with what comes from the Canon files. I prefer the handling of the Canon although the Nikon works fine. I generally find the Nikon system more convoluted in the design. But I agree that Canon should come out with a higher resolution camera that also handles the low ISO well.

Hans Kruse

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #142 on: December 29, 2014, 10:47:21 am »

Please, don't let Hans's attitude drive you away Nick. :)

Your contributions are an order of magnitude more valuable to me and your civil tone is always a pleasure to read.

Cheers,
Bernard


Wow  ???

jeremyrh

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #143 on: December 29, 2014, 10:59:48 am »

Wow  ???

Hahahaha - we still love you, Hans  ;D
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Hans Kruse

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #144 on: December 29, 2014, 11:08:44 am »

You would be so fun to have under cross-examination.  And thank you for reminding me why this forum isn't worth another single waking moment of my life.

- N.

Nick,
This site has turned into not only being Canon bashing but lately also Nikon. I have no problem with reviews that criticize vendors for their products and the functions, price etc. But to do so without good reasoning is just in my opinion not productive for anybody. What I do not like at all is general statements that are not only incorrect but also done without even unpacking products from the given vendor. I cannot remember when the last review of a Canon EOS product was done on this site. I believe the last camerabody review was the 1Ds mkIII done by Michael in 2007. The choice not to review Canon EOS products is entirely up to LuLa, but I would then expect that comparisons to Canon products are not made.

And btw. I was not referring to your reviews...

Hans Kruse

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #145 on: December 29, 2014, 11:10:05 am »

Hahahaha - we still love you, Hans  ;D

You saved my day, Jeremy  ;D

Hans Kruse

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #146 on: December 29, 2014, 11:32:15 am »

BTW, Hans, very nice.  I have to admit that I looked at all the images and and liked the last one best.  Though the 2nd one is really nice and would just be better with a little more detail in the tree and other shadows. Then I went back and read the post before I figured out the last one was actually from the D810.

Thanks, I agree a little less contrast in the shadows would not hurt at all. But I liked to have the tree standing as a silhouette. 

The last one taken with the D810 is this one

http://www.hanskrusephotography.com/Landscapes/Selected-Landscape-Gallery/i-Ck9vLTT/A


The following one is also shot with the 5D mkIII
http://www.hanskrusephotography.com/Landscapes/Selected-Landscape-Gallery/i-Frqv4JH/A


And the following with the D800E and the Sigma 24-105 f/4
http://www.hanskrusephotography.com/Landscapes/Selected-Landscape-Gallery/i-PtbqWkR/A


The last one I could have done with the 5D mkIII likely or at least doing an HDR merge using the 32 bit Photomatix plugin for Lightroom and the edit the 32 bit file in Lightroom. In such cases I would shoot the 5D mkIII using live view and EFSC in continuous mode which means that clouds will move very little through a bracket sequence. But it is simpler and will not break the workflow using a single RAW file from the Nikon, so this is a clear advantage.

dwswager

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #147 on: December 29, 2014, 12:20:52 pm »

It was on purpose that I included the Nikon 70-200 f/4 VR since this is the best performing Nikon 70-200. It was about price since clearly an f/2.8 lens is more expensive than an f/4 lens. Canon has a similar lens that is slightly less performing than the f/2.8.

If you look at the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 VRII on the D3X which is 24MP and the Canon 70-200 f/2.8L IS II on the 22.8MP 5D mkIII you will see the difference in lens quality

Agreed, but will qualify by saying that the D3x (2008) is a 4 year older sensor model than the 5DmkIII (2012).  Using the new D750 would be unfair and the same age 5DmkII has only 18MP.  Nothing is ever 'equal' and you have to work with what is available at the time and at this time the D810 w/ 70-200mm Nikkor tests better than the comparable Canon offering of 5DmkIII w/ Canon 70-200mm.  Whether one would see a difference is another matter and would depend on technique and shooting conditions.
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dwswager

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #148 on: December 29, 2014, 12:39:40 pm »

Nick,
This site has turned into not only being Canon bashing but lately also Nikon. I have no problem with reviews that criticize vendors for their products and the functions, price etc. But to do so without good reasoning is just in my opinion not productive for anybody. What I do not like at all is general statements that are not only incorrect but also done without even unpacking products from the given vendor. I cannot remember when the last review of a Canon EOS product was done on this site. I believe the last camerabody review was the 1Ds mkIII done by Michael in 2007. The choice not to review Canon EOS products is entirely up to LuLa, but I would then expect that comparisons to Canon products are not made.

And btw. I was not referring to your reviews...

There is a difference between LuLa bashing products and Forum posts.

Personally, I am an equal opportunity criticizer.  Both Nikon and Canon have lots of functionality that can be added to their products that would make them more useful...at least to me.  I allow that most of these depend on processing capability and onboard power which is a real constraint.  And I want both brands to do well such that the competition pushes the other.

Number 1 criticism is why almost every camera has a bunch of Settings Spreadsheet floating around.  Why are we keeping settings in a spreadsheet and not in the camera?  Because neither company is competent enough to add that functionality.  Don't know what Canon offers, but Nikon's Enthusiast Line's U1/U2 settings are an incomplete and too few approximation of this functionality and the Pro line Shooting Banks is almost worse.

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Hans Kruse

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #149 on: December 29, 2014, 12:55:31 pm »

Agreed, but will qualify by saying that the D3x (2008) is a 4 year older sensor model than the 5DmkIII (2012).  Using the new D750 would be unfair and the same age 5DmkII has only 18MP.  Nothing is ever 'equal' and you have to work with what is available at the time and at this time the D810 w/ 70-200mm Nikkor tests better than the comparable Canon offering of 5DmkIII w/ Canon 70-200mm.  Whether one would see a difference is another matter and would depend on technique and shooting conditions.

Yes, sure, so lets take another Nikon sensor like the D610 which also 24MP and the result is the same. The 5D II sensor is not the same as the 5D III.

dwswager

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #150 on: December 29, 2014, 02:09:44 pm »

Yes, sure, so lets take another Nikon sensor like the D610 which also 24MP and the result is the same. The 5D II sensor is not the same as the 5D III.

Again we agree.  The Nikon package tests out just slightly better. 

If we wanted to just test lenses, then they need imaged to the same test platform.  In the real world, that is not possible.  The lenses/camera form a system and the 5DmkIII is the closest equivalent offering from Canon to the D810 based on price and features and camera line positioning of both manufacturers. 

I think what we all can agree upon is that it would be very beneficial to Canon Lens owners if Canon would release a camera of better sensor properties to better utilize the excellent quality of their lenses.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #151 on: December 29, 2014, 02:20:01 pm »

... I cannot remember when the last review of a Canon EOS product was done on this site.... I would then expect that comparisons to Canon products are not made.

Hams, in all fairness to LuLa, it is not hard to see why. Canon simply has not come up with anything excitable and worth testing since then. Nobody gets excited over testing a Camry, which is what Canon has become.

P.S. For the record, I use Canons and drive a Camry

John Koerner

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #152 on: December 29, 2014, 02:38:00 pm »

Hams, in all fairness to LuLa, it is not hard to see why. Canon simply has not come up with anything excitable and worth testing since then. Nobody gets excited over testing a Camry, which is what Canon has become.

Anything? Come on now.

Lest we forget, Canon has come out with some awesome lenses: 16-35 f/4 (best in class); 24-70 II f/2.8 (best in class); 200-400 f/4 + built-in extender (possibly the single best, most versatile high-end wildlife lens from anyone).

The truth is, Canon has the most complete overall lens lineup of anyone, and their cameras do pretty much everything better than the competition, functionality-wise, they just are a tad behind in their sensors.

Once the single issue of the sensor issue is addressed, and it will be, there won't be much to complain about.

It will actually take Fuji, Samsung, Nikon, etc. a lot longer to catch up to Canon than the reverse.



P.S. For the record, I use Canons and drive a Camry

 :D
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bcooter

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #153 on: December 29, 2014, 03:03:56 pm »

And thank you for reminding me why this forum isn't worth another single waking moment of my life.

- N.


Nick,

It's always been Canon, Nikon, Canon, Nikon, Canon, Nikon.

Somewhere in between the talk was medium format vs. 35mm.

Now of course there is some mention of  Sony and Pentax.  

At least sometimes there was an emphasis on the actual photograph.

Now it's just tech.  Not the technique it requires to produce something worth producing, but just tech for techs sake, mixed with Brand worship.

I use to think people naively thought there was that one machine that would make them the next Weston, Avedon, Penn  . . .

Now it seems that that's not the plan.  The plan is that one machine that they can prove is better and win some kind of made up argument on the web.

A contest, but there is no prize.

The bottom line is this:

If you can't produce a compelling image from a 7 year old camera,  you'll never be able to produce a compelling image.

IMO

BC

P.S. Bernhard.  We all know your love of the d800 whatever and have the thousands of mentions to prove it.  That's your choice but word to the wise.

If you want attention for your imagery, talk the imagery not the tech.  Anybody can buy a camera.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 03:05:33 pm by bcooter »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #154 on: December 29, 2014, 03:06:27 pm »

...  200-400 f/4 + built-in extender (possibly the single best, most versatile high-end wildlife lens from anyone)...

And LuLa had its review, hadn't it?

Craig Lamson

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #155 on: December 29, 2014, 03:31:14 pm »


Nick,

It's always been Canon, Nikon, Canon, Nikon, Canon, Nikon.

Somewhere in between the talk was medium format vs. 35mm.

Now of course there is some mention of  Sony and Pentax.  

At least sometimes there was an emphasis on the actual photograph.

Now it's just tech.  Not the technique it requires to produce something worth producing, but just tech for techs sake, mixed with Brand worship.

I use to think people naively thought there was that one machine that would make them the next Weston, Avedon, Penn  . . .

Now it seems that that's not the plan.  The plan is that one machine that they can prove is better and win some kind of made up argument on the web.

A contest, but there is no prize.

The bottom line is this:

If you can't produce a compelling image from a 7 year old camera,  you'll never be able to produce a compelling image.

IMO

BC

P.S. Bernhard.  We all know your love of the d800 whatever and have the thousands of mentions to prove it.  That's your choice but word to the wise.

If you want attention for your imagery, talk the imagery not the tech.  Anybody can buy a camera.

I don't know but I still shoot with 7 year old cameras and while I can't say that my images are compelling they are commercially successful and no one tells me...to this day...that I need a better or different camera.  They just continue to ask me to produce images for them and I cash their checks.  

Quite frankly its a very good thing to be off the continuous 18 month camera upgrade cycle.  Now, I shoot Canon and while the tech guy inside of me would love a new high res sensor, the business guys says its not broken and it doesn't need fixed.

Given that I'm sure I would buy a 36mp or higher Canon, but I'm not switching systems or workflow to do that now with another brand.

Everyone has different needs and wants.  For me a 5dII and a 1DsIII still work just fine.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 03:33:05 pm by Craig Lamson »
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Colorado David

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #156 on: December 29, 2014, 03:35:12 pm »

The Nikon 200-400 f4 is a wonderful lens while the Canon is probably a wonderful lens as well.  The Canon is not quite twice the price of the Nikon.  I have a Canon-shooting colleague who is vocally disappointed with the Canon price.  Full disclosure; I shoot Nikon, have the 200-400, and have nothing against Canon.

Hans Kruse

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #157 on: December 29, 2014, 03:39:16 pm »

Hams, in all fairness to LuLa, it is not hard to see why. Canon simply has not come up with anything excitable and worth testing since then. Nobody gets excited over testing a Camry, which is what Canon has become.

P.S. For the record, I use Canons and drive a Camry

In recent years Canon has come up with at least the following list relevant for still photography and with video capability:

6D, 5D mkIII, 1DX, 7D mkII
16-35 f/4L IS
24-70 f/2.8L II
24-70 f/4L IS
70-200 f/2.8L IS II
70-300 f/4-5.6L IS
100-400 f/4.5-5.6L IS II
200-400L f/4 IS plus 1.4x TC built-in
300 f/2.8L IS II
400 f/2.8L IS II
500 f/4L IS II
600 f/4L IS II

plus the TS-E 17 f/4L and 24 f/3.5L II

and I might even have missed a few ones.

I agree that the sensor of the Canon cameras has not improved DR, but almost anything has been improved a lot. So it seems to me that the sensor is the reason for not giving Canon any credit for a lot of really good new products that have come out in the last few years.



dwswager

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #158 on: December 29, 2014, 03:39:53 pm »


At least sometimes there was an emphasis on the actual photograph.

Now it's just tech.  Not the technique it requires to produce something worth producing, but just tech for techs sake, mixed with Brand worship.
This particular part of the LuLa forum is titled "Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear" so one should expect dicussion of 'tech'.  Though it would be helpful if people would highlight the strengths and weaknesses of their equipment in a realistic fashion indicate how to exploit those strengths and overcome the weaknesses.


The bottom line is this:

If you can't produce a compelling image from a 7 year old camera,  you'll never be able to produce a compelling image.
While I certainly agree with your statement, that does not mean that better 'tech' would not allow for a better image or an image that can be utilized in more ways at larger sizes.  Nor does it obviate the obligation of the photographer to understand what tech is necessary to execute a particular image well.  When reviewing my older images made with a D300 (12MP) and D70 (6MP), there are lots of sighs and if only's to include if only I had more pixels or more DR or less noise.  Nothing more disappointing than great images, made during once in a lifetime opportunities, that just can't be teased or tortured to the purpose you want.
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eronald

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #159 on: December 29, 2014, 04:34:47 pm »

Talent, perhaps?

I don't know that brand. Where can I get it?

Hans' pix really amaze me :)

Edmund
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