Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Lens CHoice for my New D810  (Read 13403 times)

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: Lens CHoice for my New D810
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2014, 05:56:25 pm »

Hello Shadowblade, a few more thoughts.

The 17mm Canon vs 23 Rodenstock, on the 50MP MF sensor, which is what Alpa is testing on, I believe the 23mm will be just a bit wider.  I base this on the fact that a 28mm Rodenstock on a full frame sensor is the equivalent of a 17mm on a 35mm camera.  They are testing on a 50MP cropped sensor, 1:3 crop, but I think the crop would effect both lenses the same.  The image circle of the 23mm Rod, is 70mm, I am not sure what the IC of the Canon is.  On a 35mm camera sensor, the 17mm would be wider for sure, as the 23mm Rodenstock would be seen as a 23mm lens to the 35mm camera sensor. 

I would agree that the 17mm for 35mm cameras is a bit too wide, works better for indoor work and Architecture.  It's also not very friendly with filters, and the 24mm Canon is.  I hated to lose the 24mm TS-E II when I moved over to Nikon. 

I find now a days, I tend to just shoot in the vertical hand held in the 24mm range, for large panos, as the modern software tools like Ptgui or Autopano, can correct the vast majority of issues.  Most outdoor subject matter warps with no issues, unlike buildings which really do require a lot of work. Working from a nodal point/and having to be level all the time with the other tools most times won't work for the shot I want to take.  However the tech camera and MF back I use works very well also, as I can shift up to 18mm with most of my lenses and have tilt to help control DOF. 

On the CA issues, I never saw much with my 24 TS-E II, even when shifted, a ton however with the older version of the lens.  I mainly used the lens in the F5.6 to F8 range.  I found that LR's standard CA correction tool seemed to get most of the issues and Capture One's CA correction also does a good job.  The fringing tools in ACR offer a better selection and I wish they were included in LR's tool set.  The ones that LR has don't offer the same level of corrections,

I'm not referring to 17mm on 35mm. I'm referring to the 17mm mounted on an IQ280, or a shift-stitched panorama on 35mm (which is even wider), since the image circle is large enough for that.

23mm on MF is a very useful width - similar to 24mm shift-stitched on a 35mm sensor (with 60mm effective sensor width). Equivalent angle of view to roughly a 14-15mm lens on a single-frame 35mm shot. 17mm is a lot wider and not as versatile, but when you need it, you really need it.
Logged

alan_b

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 318
    • West Coast Architecture + Interiors Photographer
Re: Canon 24 TSE vs Nikon 24 PCE
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2014, 10:00:55 pm »

A direct comparison at 36MP would have to be done on a Sony A7r, or similar camera.  I have not seen one as of yet.  The Canon lens on a Nikon body, will lose infinity focus. 

I tried the 24mm Nikon PC-E and found it lacking on shifts.  Considerable softness when shifted.  There is a bit more CA than the Canon, but that's so easy to fix it doesn't matter.  The Canon moves 12mm,  on shifts, I can't remember if the Nikon stops at 10mm or 12mm.   You can have Nikon change the lens so that tilt and shift are in the same plane, at a cost.  It seems that the process is fairly simple and can be done by the owner.  This is important as you need to be able to have tilt in combination with shift. 

OK - Apologies to the OP for continuing this tangent...

Found some 17/24mm PCE on IQ180 images posted by chrismuc here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=90790.msg739022#msg739022

I overlaid a Nikon 24PCE shot w/ full shift to roughly compare.  My impressions:
The Canon sharpness falls off 3-5mm farther from center than the Nikon
The Nikon vignettes shortly after sharpness falloff, but the Canon has a much slower illumination falloff, about 8mm farther out than the Nikon.

These are ballpark impressions, since I'm comparing different scenes.  Generally it looks like the Canon will show soft corners on a full long-axis shift, while the Nikon shows vignetted corners and a soft edge.  Within the sharp image circles, I didn't see an obvious difference in sharpness.
Logged

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4066
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: Lens CHoice for my New D810
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2014, 08:28:51 am »

If the comparison is Canon on 80 MP vs Nikon on 36 or less I would say that's not the best example. The IQ180 with a Canon 17 or 24 fully shifted will be very taxing on the lens.

Alpa has many good examples that show the 17 Canon on the 50MP Phase IQ250 and here it seemed to do very well

It's always best to test for yourself and lensrentals.com makes this very easy to do.

My experience the the Canon TS-E24II was all on the Canon 5D-MKII and MKIII. I saw excellent performance on full shifts of 12mm from F6.3 to F11.  What light fall off there was easily corrected by taking an LCC frame on shifts and using Capture One to correct the files.

I tried 3 of the Nikon 24 PC-E lenses on a 36MP D800. None of them were close on shifts to what I had been able to get with the Canon. I realize that the Canon was 20MP, however the Canon has performed very well on the 50MP backs.  Others have had better results however foe a 2K lens I excpected better. The Nikon is the same lens that has been on the market for 5 years or longer. It just needs an update.

Paul
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: Lens CHoice for my New D810
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2014, 08:42:16 am »

If the comparison is Canon on 80 MP vs Nikon on 36 or less I would say that's not the best example. The IQ180 with a Canon 17 or 24 fully shifted will be very taxing on the lens.

Actually, it's less taxing than a shifted-stitched image on a Sony A7r. This is because the pixel density is lower, so the lens doesn't need to be as sharp, and the shifted-stitched image uses parts of the image circle further from the centre than the medium format shot.

Quote
Alpa has many good examples that show the 17 Canon on the 50MP Phase IQ250 and here it seemed to do very well

Of course. Again, it's down to pixel density - if it can handle an A7r, it can handle an IQ250. A much more difficult test would be a 24MP NEX-7.

Quote
I tried 3 of the Nikon 24 PC-E lenses on a 36MP D800. None of them were close on shifts to what I had been able to get with the Canon. I realize that the Canon was 20MP, however the Canon has performed very well on the 50MP backs.  Others have had better results however foe a 2K lens I excpected better. The Nikon is the same lens that has been on the market for 5 years or longer. It just needs an update.

Again, it's down to pixel density, not absolute resolution. The 50MP 44x33mm sensor isn't much denser than Canon's 24x36mm 22MP sensor, and much less dense than the Sony full-frame 36MP sensor, let alone the 24MP crop.

That said, the Nikon is still a disappointing lens, and not really up to the job.
Logged

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4066
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: Lens CHoice for my New D810
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2014, 10:19:15 am »

Good point on the 24mp Sony 1.5 APS sensor. I did try my 24 TS-E on my Nex7 and the results were poor. Shift past 5mm showed a good bit of color shift and the light fall off was extreme.

Paul
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

alan_b

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 318
    • West Coast Architecture + Interiors Photographer
Re: Lens CHoice for my New D810
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2014, 01:38:09 pm »

If the comparison is Canon on 80 MP vs Nikon on 36 or less I would say that's not the best example. The IQ180 with a Canon 17 or 24 fully shifted will be very taxing on the lens.

Alpa has many good examples that show the 17 Canon on the 50MP Phase IQ250 and here it seemed to do very well

It's always best to test for yourself and lensrentals.com makes this very easy to do.

Paul,

Definitely agreed - different scenes, focus distances, lighting, field curvature, unknown variables, etc. etc.  I just thought it’d be interesting to lay a handful of nikon images over the canon on a high-res large sensor to see if any general characteristics appeared.

Quote
My experience the the Canon TS-E24II was all on the Canon 5D-MKII and MKIII. I saw excellent performance on full shifts of 12mm from F6.3 to F11.  What light fall off there was easily corrected by taking an LCC frame on shifts and using Capture One to correct the files.

I tried 3 of the Nikon 24 PC-E lenses on a 36MP D800. None of them were close on shifts to what I had been able to get with the Canon. I realize that the Canon was 20MP, however the Canon has performed very well on the 50MP backs.  Others have had better results however foe a 2K lens I excpected better. The Nikon is the same lens that has been on the market for 5 years or longer. It just needs an update.

This gets stated a lot online, but the difference in sensor density is significant.  Canon is 22MP, N/S is 36MP, IQ180 is 32MP in a 35mm area.  So, a shifted 36MP FX sensor shows the highest pixel density in the outer image circle.  (A shifted 24MP DX sensor won’t get as far from center.)

In Chrismuc’s IQ180/PCE24 sample, I see a clear falloff in sharpness ~30mm from center (60mm image circle).  With my Nikon samples, a similar falloff happens ~27mm from center (54mm image circle).  The Canon’s illuminated area is much larger, but the sharp image circle is only ~3mm larger each way.  Again, rough numbers based on uncontrolled comparisons.

The price/quality is what it is.  The Nikon works well within it’s good range - the Canon has a wider range, but could be better as well.  I’d pay Otus prices for a 24mm shift lens that eliminated the weaknesses at the edge of shifted frames. 
Logged

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4066
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: Lens CHoice for my New D810
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2014, 01:40:55 pm »

Alan:

Good points, it's a lot of up to the subject matter and sensor.  I watched Schneider's announcement of the 28mm TS lens, but when it was priced at 8.5K, I decided quickly against it.  I have a long history with the 28mm Mamiya D which supposedly the 35mm version was based on. 

Paul
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: Lens CHoice for my New D810
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2014, 06:23:01 pm »

The price/quality is what it is.  The Nikon works well within it’s good range - the Canon has a wider range, but could be better as well.  I’d pay Otus prices for a 24mm shift lens that eliminated the weaknesses at the edge of shifted frames. 

Definitely. And a 17mm and 45mm one as well. Doubly so if they used a 9-bladed aperture, instead of the current 8-bladed one, that actually produces decent sunstars.

An adapter to get the Rodenstock Digiron 23 and similar lenses to work as shift lenses on a Nikon/Canon/Sony mount would also be a winner.
Logged

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4066
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: Lens CHoice for my New D810
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2014, 07:32:51 am »

Definitely. And a 17mm and 45mm one as well. Doubly so if they used a 9-bladed aperture, instead of the current 8-bladed one, that actually produces decent sunstars.

An adapter to get the Rodenstock Digiron 23 and similar lenses to work as shift lenses on a Nikon/Canon/Sony mount would also be a winner.

Due to the mirror box of a standard DSLR, the wider Schneider and Rodenstock lenses wont' reach infinity focus.  When these lenses are mounted on a tech camera for a medium format camera, the 23, 28, and 35 will be as close as 1/4" from the sensor when focused to infinity.  The widest the Nikon and Canon standard mirror enabled bodies can take is 90mm. 

You can use a device like the Arca DSLR2 or newer Universalis to get much better results with a Sony mirrorless like the A7r.  The Arca DSLR2 will allow you to use the 35XL Schneider and 40mm/32mm Rod, but still you can't use the 23 or 28 and achieve infinity focus.

You can read more about the setup in this article:

http://photosofarkansas.com/2014/11/07/the-arca-swiss-dslr-2-a-perfect-companion-to-the-sony-a7r-part-1-camera-review/

The images I was able to obtain with the A7r and the Arca DSLR2 were most impressive.

Paul
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up