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Author Topic: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)  (Read 44399 times)

KAHA

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2014, 02:14:06 am »

Hi David you are one cool cat in my book,

 cheers  8)

Erik,

I'm sorry you feel my information isn't accurate. All the facts, figures and reasoning came directly from my conversations with engineers at Leica who are directly responsible for the work with CMOSIS designing the chip. Interestingly, you are the only person to take issue with my write-up since it has been posted a few weeks ago, but I am happy to address your specific issues.

You are absolutely correct. The S lenses are telecentric designs, but the snippet of text you quoted from my article only talks about M lenses on an M240 and using those same lenses on a Sony A7r. I didn't make mention of the S lenses.

I think it would be interesting to explore in further detail just how telecentric the S lenses (or other MFDSLR lenses) actually are. Sure, I'd imagine a 180mm to be close to 100% telecentric, but perhaps an ultra-wide like the 24mm might not be totally telecentric.
 
In my article I said "around 79db" as the early testing samples Leica received from CMOSIS were from the first wafer. Dr. Zimmer seemed to be hinting at slightly better performance when the sensor goes into full production. Likewise, there are other factors in the imaging pipeline that contribute to overall system DR. The range of 13 to 14 stops is a reasonable estimate based on current testing and knowledge of future optimization.

We will have to see when real-life comparisons can be made. I'm as anxious as you to see the results.

Agreed. I don't like disinformation either. That's why I fact check and speak directly to the source.


David

« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 05:33:40 am by KAHA »
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paratom

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2014, 07:18:06 am »

From the practical side I find the Leica S System a joy to use.
Size, user Interface and Feeling are much more DSLR like than any other digital medium Format Resolution.
The lenses seem to be very solid Performers where you can just use each f-stop without having to worry about IQ.
And I have very good experience with AF-accurancy. Out of my 6 lenses  I have not had to get any lens adjusted.
I assume many S users are pretty fine with 36MP without doubting some would like to have even more MP.
So when judging the System and the amount of "foam" one should take into account the whole package and not just the sensor.
At Photokina I handled a Pentax 645z (which would be my choice if I couldnt afford the S-System) just to realize how much I like the handling of the S.
So I wonder how many photographers would like to have/take Advantage of more then 36MP and what would be the typical application?
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JV

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2014, 07:22:25 am »

Hi David you are one cool cat in my book,

 cheers  8)


+1.  Thanks for replying David. 
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hjulenissen

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2014, 07:53:09 am »

Erik,

 In the Leica Cappucino there is some coffee, some milk and a LOT of foam. The experience can still be positive although the price does not reflect the contents.

Edmund
So does one attribute the success of a Cappucino to the amount of coffeine that one gets, or to the amount of happiness that it contributes to your life (e.g. by having nice figures in the foam)? :-)

-h
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ndevlin

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2014, 08:30:51 am »


To recap:

The S2 is a really nice camera. :) The S2 CMOS will be a really nice as well.  :) It won't have more megapixels.  People who like megapixels are sad.  >:(   It will be better in low light than the CCD S2.   ;D Some think it will be better than the Sony chip as weaponized by Pentax. :o  Others think there is little reason to believe this is true.  :-\  Some people know a lot about numbers and fancy technical words.  ??? Others could care less.  :P Very few of either of them could possibly afford the new S2 :'( The only way to know what will happen in the future, is to get there.  8)

- N.
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Ken R

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2014, 09:37:19 am »

To recap:

The S2 is a really nice camera. :) The S2 CMOS will be a really nice as well.  :) It won't have more megapixels.  People who like megapixels are sad.  >:(   It will be better in low light than the CCD S2.   ;D Some think it will be better than the Sony chip as weaponized by Pentax. :o  Others think there is little reason to believe this is true.  :-\  Some people know a lot about numbers and fancy technical words.  ??? Others could care less.  :P Very few of either of them could possibly afford the new S2 :'( The only way to know what will happen in the future, is to get there.  8)

- N.

There is one big issue though. The lenses. No one that I know uses a digital camera without a lens. The Leica S lens line is Superb from the 24mm to the 180mm. They really get every bit of detail out of the sensor. Plus you can use Contax 645, Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Mamiya 645 and Pentax 6x7 lenses.

With the Pentax 645z you can use Pentax 645 lenses and also I think you can adapt Hasselblad V lenses. Thats it.

Leica designed the Leica S with a very short Flange Focal Distance which makes adapting many lenses possible. The Pentax 645 mount unfortunately has a very large FFD of about 71mm only bested by the Hassy V and the P67 mounts.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 09:39:54 am by Ken R »
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Carl Glover

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2014, 11:09:32 am »

If Leica ever get round to doing an adapter for Rollei MF lenses I'd buy an S2 in a flash!

Ken R

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2014, 11:29:30 am »

If Leica ever get round to doing an adapter for Rollei MF lenses I'd buy an S2 in a flash!

That would be easy. The Rollei 6x6 mount has a long enough flange focal distance.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 11:33:05 am by Ken R »
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JV

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2014, 11:36:52 am »

If Leica ever get round to doing an adapter for Rollei MF lenses I'd buy an S2 in a flash!

Given that Leica owns Sinar now I am actually very surprised that it has not yet happened.
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2014, 12:14:09 pm »

To recap:

     Very few of either of them could possibly afford the new S2 :'( The only way to know what will happen in the future, is to get there.  8)

- N.
I think many underestimate the success that S-007 will have... There are many reasons for that (surely to happen) success... 1. Is the fact that many will consider to abandon their DSLR system all together because the camera has exactly the same size and flexibility as a DSLR... If one has a DSLR system based on high quality lenses, selling it should support much of the cost... 2. The people that currently use both DSLR and MF... they can use their MF lenses on the S (H & C645 users particularly so) and invest the difference on an S while having the same lenses for both... Restricting the ...bag size while improving quality at the same time is so very tempting for everyone. 3. People of all 1&2 that want to invest on a new back ...may as well buy them selves a camera. 4. (this is a huge market) ...With the expected high-Iso performance, there will be LOTS of "wedding photographers" that will want to differentiate themselves from the "crowed" of "wedding photographers"... which will invest (the difference of their huge DSLR system) on the camera, expecting more prestige (and thus more customers) as well as more fame (even more customers) out of their investment... I'm sure that all the above reasoning will provide the S-007 a brilliant future... (and tears to competition)! ...and none of the above will give a dime for 38 or 50 resolution, or feathers shot with P45 in comparison to DSLR, or notes or ...theories of man that know better than Leitz engineers!  ;)
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daure

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2014, 02:18:15 pm »

There is one big issue though. The lenses. No one that I know uses a digital camera without a lens. The Leica S lens line is Superb from the 24mm to the 180mm. They really get every bit of detail out of the sensor. Plus you can use Contax 645, Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Mamiya 645 and Pentax 6x7 lenses.
I am very happy to use Pentax 645 lenses too
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tjv

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2014, 02:34:26 pm »

Although I'd like more resolution and think the S system is the best in town – save the fact I couldn't use it on my Techno and the 3x2 ratio – the biggest thing against it is price, pure and simple. To think otherwise is to kid ourselves. If the 007 were priced at the level of the S-E, then the system might start to get traction. In the meantime, it'll be an aspirational product for many, even if it might be the best tool for the job for them. This is all just my opinion of course, written in a country where the average wage before tax wouldn't even buy you an 007 and 70mm lens.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2014, 02:34:57 pm »

Hi,

I would say that Rolleiflex Hy6 Mod2 may be an attractive alternative or the Alpa FPS, depending on needs, of course.

http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/en/rolleiflex-slr/rolleiflex-hy6-mod2.html
http://www.alpa.ch/products/lenses/macro-tilt-swing/apla-lens-adapter-rolleiflex-600x-hy6-sinar-hy6-leaf-afi.html

Best regards
Erik



If Leica ever get round to doing an adapter for Rollei MF lenses I'd buy an S2 in a flash!
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Those feather shots…
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2014, 02:43:45 pm »

Hi,

It seems that some posters believe marketing rather than their eyes. The feather shots demonstrate the difference between 6.8 micron and 3.8 micron sensor:


If you prefer the image on the left, buy a 39 MP back like the P45+ or the Leica S2. In case you prefer the image on the right wait for a 150 MP digital back.
Both images shot a 3.8 m with comparable lenses at 150 mm. The significant difference is the sensor, 6.8 vs 3.8 micron pitch.


Simple, isn't it?

More information here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/78-aliasing-and-supersampling-why-small-pixels-are-good

Best regards
Erik

I think many underestimate the success that S-007 will have... There are many reasons for that (surely to happen) success... 1. Is the fact that many will consider to abandon their DSLR system all together because the camera has exactly the same size and flexibility as a DSLR... If one has a DSLR system based on high quality lenses, selling it should support much of the cost... 2. The people that currently use both DSLR and MF... they can use their MF lenses on the S (H & C645 users particularly so) and invest the difference on an S while having the same lenses for both... Restricting the ...bag size while improving quality at the same time is so very tempting for everyone. 3. People of all 1&2 that want to invest on a new back ...may as well buy them selves a camera. 4. (this is a huge market) ...With the expected high-Iso performance, there will be LOTS of "wedding photographers" that will want to differentiate themselves from the "crowed" of "wedding photographers"... which will invest (the difference of their huge DSLR system) on the camera, expecting more prestige (and thus more customers) as well as more fame (even more customers) out of their investment... I'm sure that all the above reasoning will provide the S-007 a brilliant future... (and tears to competition)! ...and none of the above will give a dime for 38 or 50 resolution, or feathers shot with P45 in comparison to DSLR, or notes or ...theories of man that know better than Leitz engineers!  ;)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 02:57:14 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

bcooter

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2014, 03:10:45 pm »

Pretty photos Erik, though next time you see moire on the screen, pull back a few inches . . . it'll disappear.


IMO

BC
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 03:15:14 pm by bcooter »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2014, 03:38:07 pm »

Hi BC,

It is a 3.8 meters. I guess you mean pull back a few meters…

Actually, I started out at 80 mm focal length (at 3.8 m) but decided to use 150 mm. The effects were quite clear in both cases, but the 150 mm shot was more obvious. Anyway, I see very much the same issues with 80 mm and 150 mm at 3.8m distance, so I am pretty (read 100%) sure these results are relevant.

If I am shooting at f/16 almost all aliasing disappears, but so does much of the detail.

Obviously, some subjects are more tolerant. Shooting a subject like this shows a clear difference in fake and true detail, as everyone knows what a feather looks like. Just as an example, eyelashes in a portrait shoot are a bit different, I don't think many people have real world association with eye lashes having heavy makeup in real world situations.

IMO

Best regards
Erik





Pretty photos Erik, though next time you see moire on the screen, pull back a few inches . . . it'll disappear.


IMO

BC
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 03:49:29 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2014, 03:44:42 pm »

Hi BC,

It is a 3.8 meters. I guess you mean pull back a few meters…

Actually, I started out at 80 mm focal length (at 3.8 m) but decided to use 150 mm. The effects were quite clear in both cases, but the 150 mm shot was more obvious. I am pretty (read 100%) sure these results are relevant.

If I am shooting at f/16 almost all aliasing disappears, but so does much of the detail.

Obviously, some subjects are more tolerant. Shooting a subject like this shows a clear difference in fake and true detail, as everyone knows what a feather looks like.

IMO

Best regards
Erik





what I seriously don't understand ...is what all this "science" of "apples against "oranges" has to do with Leica S-007...????  Which I believe (unless I've read wrong) is the subject....
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Ken R

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2014, 03:45:25 pm »

Erik, you keep posting those cropped in feather pics out of context. Show each frame as taken or at least explain that the feather on the left represents a MUCH smaller percentage of the frame so even though it was made with a rig with more megapixels. In the image on the right you are putting much more pixels on the feather itself. (same focal length, much less angle of view on a smaller sensor). Duh, 150 MP would be awesome and virtually eliminate moire. (no need to do a test to be convinced of this).

At any rate, let's talk about the Leica S...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 03:47:14 pm by Ken R »
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paratom

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Re: Those feather shots…
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2014, 03:56:50 pm »

Hi,

It seems that some posters believe marketing rather than their eyes. The feather shots demonstrate the difference between 6.8 micron and 3.8 micron sensor:


If you prefer the image on the left, buy a 39 MP back like the P45+ or the Leica S2. In case you prefer the image on the right wait for a 150 MP digital back.
Both images shot a 3.8 m with comparable lenses at 150 mm. The significant difference is the sensor, 6.8 vs 3.8 micron pitch.


Simple, isn't it?

More information here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/78-aliasing-and-supersampling-why-small-pixels-are-good

Best regards
Erik


Hi Erik,
I am sure it is simple to take a better image of a feather with the S.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2014, 03:58:37 pm »

Sir,

Very much indeed! The Leica has large pixels, around 6 microns and sharp lenses. So it will render as the image on the left. Would Leica opt for smaller pixels it would render as on the right.

So, if you prefer rendition on the left buy a Leica S-007. If you prefer rendition to the right wait for an MFD with 150 MP. If you cannot wait for an MFD with 150 MP buy one with 80 MP.

If you cannot wait for a 150 MP MFDB and don't want to spend 40k$ US for an 80 MP one, buy a Nikon D810 for 3k $US and pretend to be happy.

I don't see any problem, do you?

Best regards
Erik

what I seriously don't understand ...is what all this "science" of "apples against "oranges" has to do with Leica S-007...????  Which I believe (unless I've read wrong) is the subject....
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Erik Kaffehr
 
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