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Author Topic: B&W printing options  (Read 117717 times)

Jeff-Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #100 on: February 06, 2015, 05:59:19 pm »

Here's a post from Roy Harrington that makes more sense to me now than it did when I read it:

For those on Mac's instead of trying to re-linearize K7 .quad files which is hard to do,
go the ICC route.  Just create a custom grayscale ICC built on top of the existing .quad file.
Then print using this ICC.  It has the same affect as relinearizing the curve plus you get the
color-management system matching the embedded profile in your image.  This is
the best/ideal way to get screen-to-print matching assuming you are profiling your monitor.
Note that you really have to use Print-Tool on the Mac to get this all to work correctly.

The MeasureTool issue is still a pain -- I run Parallels on the Mac with WinXP running so
I run MT on that.

PCs can do this too but you've got to do your ICC conversions in Photoshop before
sending to QTRgui for printing.  (most people seem to go the No CM route on PCs I think).
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #101 on: February 06, 2015, 06:02:28 pm »

and on the subject of scanning, I use an i1io2 to scan even 21 patch sets. Hand scanning and me aren't happy together. Richard has done some conversions, and I have copied them to create my i1Profiler compatible patch sets. Colorport is just too painful, and I'm not going to try Measure Tool under Parallels under Windows.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #102 on: February 07, 2015, 08:10:47 am »

Fwiw, I never could get the i1 PhotoPro head to auto-scan to generate a decent set of numbers for linearization with Windows and the QTR linearization ordeal so I had to resort to trial and error.  There was some prior talk in maybe the Color Management forum here on discrepancies between manual spot reading and slide-scanning a chart.  Mine was off enough I gave up on ColorPort for slide-scans so I went to the arduous spot reading of 21 steps and manually entering the data into the spreadsheets.  Doing 50 steps manually would be too much and very doubtful if it would make it any more linear than I get now.  Would be nice if I could feed the info quickly and trusted the numbers from the i1 head, but for now I don't. 

No need to read things manually!  This is a trivial task if you use ArgyllCMS.  You can easily generate a 21 or 51 step (or larger if you think that is worthwhile) target sheet, print it out and read it using this command:  Chartread -v -l -n PrinterName where PrinterName is the *.ti3 file you are going to generate.  Open this *.ti3 file in Excel and you will get the necessary L*a*b* values you need for the QTR script. 
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #103 on: February 10, 2015, 04:20:57 am »

A Digital Black & White forum has been created by Chris Sanderson within LuLa's Raw & Post Processing, Printing group.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Stefan Ohlsson

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #104 on: February 10, 2015, 06:37:09 am »

And there is an active Linkedin forum for B&W photography at https://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=3041092&trk=nmp_rec_act_group_photo.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #105 on: February 12, 2015, 06:42:13 am »

Here's a post from Roy Harrington that makes more sense to me now than it did when I read it:

For those on Mac's instead of trying to re-linearize K7 .quad files which is hard to do,
go the ICC route.  Just create a custom grayscale ICC built on top of the existing .quad file.
Then print using this ICC.  It has the same affect as relinearizing the curve plus you get the
color-management system matching the embedded profile in your image.  This is
the best/ideal way to get screen-to-print matching assuming you are profiling your monitor.
Note that you really have to use Print-Tool on the Mac to get this all to work correctly.

The MeasureTool issue is still a pain -- I run Parallels on the Mac with WinXP running so
I run MT on that.

PCs can do this too but you've got to do your ICC conversions in Photoshop before
sending to QTRgui for printing.  (most people seem to go the No CM route on PCs I think).


On PCs B&W + Color Management becomes restricted too it seems. The Apple move to idiot proof CM on Macs made things more difficult for CM experts and B&W experts. Adobe got weak knees so it went along and worse it took Adobe CM on Windows on the same path.

The different ways I used in Qimage Ultimate to give Greyscale images a color tone did became more difficult too;
http://ddisoftware.com/tech/qimage-ultimate/assigned-16-bit-greyscale-images-selective-color-curves/?PHPSESSID=1i5ce7jcd63vsv1v9smjkjldk1
After that discussion I used PNG greyscale files (also compresses 16 bit files better than Tiff) where the assigned Gamma 2.2 is not recognised by QU but is by PS when editing. I think that loophole is now also blocked by MIke, have to test that again.

What I fear a bit in the RGB file + profile color managed route for B&W printing is the reduction in Dmax. I have seen that happen too often. For the HP Z models that I work with, HP recommends the B&W mode + printer driver CM on, application CM off. I always thought that the B&W mode preserves the Dmax (compared to the Z's calibration target Dmax reading) but some recent tests suggest it could as well be the printer driver CM preserves the Dmax too.  So I'm brooding on an RGB path that could be satisfying.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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deanwork

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2015, 09:13:58 am »

That is what I've done all along for 8 years with the Z, take my 16 bit grayscale files to RGB, convert to srgb, assign a toning adjustment layer if needed. The dmax is something like 1.8 on Canson Rag Photographique, no different than printing grayscale which I find too bluish for most work.  Then you can soft proof that and see it onscreen if you want.  The amount of color used is so minimal that it is a non factor for metameristic failure and we know how stable these Vivera color inks are.

I can match the same print color on the Canon 8300 with TBW and use no color inks at all. The dmax isn't quite what the Z is but in all other respects it's as good.

john


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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #107 on: February 12, 2015, 10:35:12 am »

John,

On the Z3100 that RGB workflow gave linear B&W output with for example Photorag + the HP HM Smooth Fine Art Paper media preset but not for more paper/media choices and in general not at all on the Z3200. I still have to add some form of (perceptual) linearity with a profile and that means extra application CM on top which could pull Dmax down again. For color toning greyscale the application CM renderings are not ideal either. There is actually no need for compressing/clipping the color hue/saturation as the printer gamut covers B&W toning anyway so Absolute Colormetric should be perfect but that does not know BPC which is needed to adapt to the dynamic range of the paper/ink used. A long time ago I suggested in the Colorsync forum that a B&W rendering choice should be added to the existing rendering choices. That and improved near neutral precision in the profiles should do the job. Curves can do that too but are a xxx* to make for every paper choice.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots





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Jeff-Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #108 on: February 24, 2015, 03:56:50 pm »

Jeff, when your inks arrive, it would be useful to do side by side tests of Cone versus Epson driver (not necessarily ABW) vs QTR for a good sample photo that require long tonal range and another that requires high contrast with maximum black. My prediction is that given the state of technology reached in your 3880, you may be surprised how narrow the differences may be - but that's just an intuition as I have not seen such a comparison myself. All I know is the B&W work emerging from my 4900 is good enough to dispel any interest in other options, and the difference of IQ between the 3880 and 4900 is not that much.

Mark, I am off and running with my Cone inks now. Jeff Hughes has covered a lot of comparative ground in a couple of other posts so I don't see the need to add to that.. One test I did do while waiting was QTR vs Mirage on a detailed image. The QTR image was better in fine detail than Mirage. In fact, QTR on K3 is very good from my samples. I think now that comparisons are very difficult as an image needs to be prepared differently to get the most out of each approach. That must be a consideration in the 'I looked at it and couldn't see any difference' comments. Having taken the PZ approach, I'm very happy with what I am getting, and learning more each day.
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dumainew

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2015, 04:02:36 pm »

Mark,
I like your suggestion about using Nik for printing B&W.
Is it possible to buy Silver by itself ?
And if so where ?
Have been looking for it online with no luck.
Thanks,
Richard
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Ken Doo

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #110 on: March 01, 2015, 09:18:31 pm »

Try, https://www.google.com/nikcollection/

Google bought out Nik.  One low price. Hard to beat.

ken

Jeff-Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #111 on: March 01, 2015, 11:54:46 pm »

I just found out one thing about SEP. By default, it adds grain. I have now made custom presets with Film Type and Colour Filter turned off. Piezography shows grain that other B&W methods may not.
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donbga

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #112 on: March 02, 2015, 06:52:45 pm »

  Digital will never be the same as gelatin silver or the other darkroom processes but studying what came before digital can help decide on how to move forward.  Some may disagree but that's how I see it after 40 years in photography.

It's also very possible and feasible to create digital negatives with QTR and make contact prints on traditional gelatin silver papers with white light or alternative process prints using a UV printer if that's your desire.

Don Bryant
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chez

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2015, 10:25:53 am »

I just found out one thing about SEP. By default, it adds grain. I have now made custom presets with Film Type and Colour Filter turned off. Piezography shows grain that other B&W methods may not.

I use presets as a starting point to get me close to what the image will intimately become. From there, you can tweak all the parameters to your desires, including grain. Some of my images benefit from some grain, depending on the look I'm after.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #114 on: March 08, 2015, 07:49:51 am »


No need to read things manually!  This is a trivial task if you use ArgyllCMS.  You can easily generate a 21 or 51 step (or larger if you think that is worthwhile) target sheet, print it out and read it using this command:  Chartread -v -l -n PrinterName where PrinterName is the *.ti3 file you are going to generate.  Open this *.ti3 file in Excel and you will get the necessary L*a*b* values you need for the QTR script. 

Using QTR linearising/profile creation tool with ArgyllCMS measurements too as the last install of Measure Tool on Windows 7 gave locked measurement files where the same install on XP mode in W7 works, like it does with Vista. It becomes easier (and more reliable in time) to use open source these days and it is nice that I can use identical profile creation methods on the Ubuntu system too.

There is something I would like to see added to the QTR linearisation/profile creation or in a "new" ArgyllCMS function. QTR only addresses the tone range but could have the addition of calibrating the Lab a b to the target neutrality (either absolute, taking paper white as the base or making the a b paths straight between white point and black (all color perceptually correct which could imply special color spaces)). It has no color engine at work so this is probably too much to ask. ArgyllCMS would be a better base for that. ArgyllCMS may even have the functions available to create an "RGB-device" B&W profile that addresses a perceptual tone range and calibrates the a b values within the paper/ink capabilities. The Printcal function could act like that but should have the perceptual tone linearisation of QTR.

Using the HP Z3200 calibration first and printing from Qimage Ultimate through HP Z 3200 driver CM (expecting sRGB assigned) I already have a reasonable linearity and a b deviations (a within 2 and b within 3 over the range, this is a low OBA trial paper). That improves with a QTR "RGB" B&W profile in Qimage's CM. Better L curve, Dmax not compromised (2.55 D with PremiumIDsatin + Gloss Enhancer) compared to calibration target black and linearisation target black. The sort of B&W profiles I made with ArgyllCMS + a near neutral target so far are not satisfying. Perceptual does not improve the tone range, Dmax suffers and no improvement on a and b deviations. Relative Colormatric does improve some what the a b deviations but (of course) clips the tone range and Dmax suffers.

The Printcal functions should be able to make absolute color metric corrections on the a b paths near neutral, a QTR style L function adds the right perceptual linearity for the paper/ink combination + on tone range shift caused by the choices on the a b path corrections as mentioned above. The possibility to add calibration results to the ICC profile in ArgyllCMS intrigues me but I still fear the loss of Dmax or tone range clipping that happens so far with any application CM and ICC profiles I used. For the same reason I have no trust in enhanced color profiles with iterative near neutral processing steps.

It would still be a dual profiling (or in my case more a -color calibration/driver profiling/near neutral color calibration+L profiling system- on a color mode B&W workflow. In theory it should work on small gamut ink sets too or even quad sets with two color toner inks. Of course no solution for a monochrome B&W ink set.

Paul Roark's work has been very inspiring but at the same time I have seen so much of his painstaking color tweaking on B&W ink sets that I wonder if methods from color management could not make that aspect easier, regular custom calibration faster and the workflow more flexible. I know adding color hues to B&W pigment ink sets does not improve longevity but here I start from what is today the best OEM pigment ink set and the addition of the color hues is very limited. Any sepia or split tone print will have to cope with colorants anyway, the variety of carbon black hues do not extend that far.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Some Guy

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #115 on: March 08, 2015, 11:24:53 am »

.....
Paul Roark's work has been very inspiring but at the same time I have seen so much of his painstaking color tweaking on B&W ink sets that I wonder if methods from color management could not make that aspect easier, regular custom calibration faster and the workflow more flexible. I know adding color hues to B&W pigment ink sets does not improve longevity but here I start from what is today the best OEM pigment ink set and the addition of the color hues is very limited. Any sepia or split tone print will have to cope with colorants anyway, the variety of carbon black hues do not extend that far.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

This is what I find most annoying by being locked into a "fixed" B&W tonal inkset.  The coloration, say a sepia K7, becomes a selenium cool tone on some other paper with no way to correct for it - It's what you get whether you like it or not.  That paper when printed becomes a big "Yuck!" looking print over what I saw on my screen for the original intent with no profile to put it back to the screen.

If I leave the file as a RGB against making it a Gamma 2.2 B&W for K7 inks, I can adjust it in a in a mulit-ink (along with a few blacks) color printer and move the curve to pick up the shadows and apply the tint I wanted.  It becomes very confining having a fixed coloration B&W inkset, imho.  Change paper and "Yuck!" or maybe send off $100 to get a profile to 'try' and get back the sepia tint on some new paper (That calibration program should be available for the high cost of the inks too, rather than playing the waiting game for a response via snail mail when some customer shows up with some new print surface rather than saying "I'll get back to you in 2-3 weeks after I get a custom $100 profile made for it.  Weather or snow conditions might slow the process down too."  Really!??)

Personally, I think far too much is made of trying to get a plu-perfect linearization as with what goes on in the Yahoo! QTR groups, i.e. "I need a perfect 256 step linearization against a 21 step" which is perfectly adequate for a final print.  It's good for selling lots of ink and paper though (If I were selling ink I'd probably push it too!  ;) ), and getting the anal perfectionist types worked up a bit over the entire linearization fever process too.

SG
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #116 on: March 13, 2015, 06:45:25 pm »

I've just put a piece on my site with some of the things that I have found on the road to Piezography: http://www.jeff-grant.com/the-path-to-piezography

Having just ordered a set of 220ml inks, I'm committed. The current lousy exchange rate doesn't help at all.
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Ken Doo

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #117 on: March 14, 2015, 11:10:39 am »

Congratulations, Jeff! 

Once you get past the nail-biting of conversion, printing with K7 B&W Piezography is fantastic. 

 :) ken

Jeff-Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #118 on: March 14, 2015, 06:14:53 pm »

Thanks Ken. I'm looking forward to that bit.
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Jeff Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #119 on: June 29, 2015, 08:30:03 pm »

i've been happily printing with K7 Neutral for a while now and enjoying the results so I am a happy and converted Piezography user. There was a fair bit of discussion around the options in this thread so I thought that this was worth mentioning. InkjetMall has posted a 'Proof of Piezography' file for validation of Piezography setups. I would really like to hear how this looks with Imageprint or ABW. On HPR on my 3880 I can see it all. http://www.inkjetmall.com/tech/content.php?172-Proof-of-Piezography-Test-Image
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