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Author Topic: Choosing the Right Camera System  (Read 27673 times)

Nick Walt

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2014, 03:04:59 pm »

Nick, the 6D's sensor is not better than the E-M1's, it's just the opposite. A technological humiliation for Canon brought to you by a Sony sensor design with 1/4 the Canon's size.

Guillermo, for me it is only the result that matters and full-frame still produces a noticeable improvement in tonality and acuity, especially at high ISO.
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Nick Walt

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2014, 03:10:51 pm »

I've had the 25mm Nokton for three years - fantastic lens.  And now with my new E-M1 it is stabilised too!  So I can shoot in candlelight - brilliant.

Jim

I totally agree, Jim. IBIS makes so much sense that I can't believe everyone else still continues with lens based stabilisation. Apparently, even the 3-axis stabilisation on the E-M10 is comparable with the 5-axis in the E-M1. Recently, Fuji announced new weather sealed lenses and at least one of them did not have stabilisation. When asked about the omission, Fuji said it was to keep weight and size down. IBIS and mirrorless - awesome technology for the future.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 03:13:52 pm by Nick Walt »
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deejjjaaaa

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Re:
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2014, 03:26:50 pm »

Nick, the 6D's sensor is not better than the E-M1's, it's just the opposite. A technological humilliation for Canon brought to you by a Sony sensor design with 1/4 the Canon's size.
just to clarify... E-M1 has Panasonic sensor, not from Sony... the same as in GH4... E-M5 & GH-3 both had Sony sensor, but the last round in m43 was won by Panasonic over Sony
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deejjjaaaa

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Re:
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2014, 03:28:24 pm »

huh???

on what do you base that?

he means noise in deep shadows @ base gain (or close to that)... naturally above deep shadows there is no replacement for displacement and even Canon sensor gathers more light because it is FF vs m43
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allegretto

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« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2014, 03:47:02 pm »

he means noise in deep shadows @ base gain (or close to that)... naturally above deep shadows there is no replacement for displacement and even Canon sensor gathers more light because it is FF vs m43

I see, so noise in deep shadows at low ISO becomes the "standard test"...?

Even though, it just ain't so

i think dpreview is one of the lamest sources of info, however they do one thing I like in that they actually have a "test shot" and you can call up other cameras and compare almost apples to apples

Used RAW ISO 200. Low light and regular light. Guess what isn't so...?

And above 200... well the Oly can't keep up on noise, DR, sharpness etc. And no one should expect it to do that.

This is not a slam on Oly. It's a great system and camera. This is simply a citation for what I think a very biased and inaccurate statement.

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deejjjaaaa

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« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2014, 04:25:13 pm »

I see, so noise in deep shadows at low ISO becomes the "standard test"...?

no, but if you do test DR that naturally plays... plus there is banding on top of that (noise in deep shadows @ base ISO)... older Canon FF sensors were not exactly good in that respect

i think dpreview is one of the lamest sources of info

who says anything about dpreview ? please do not bring their tests into any discussions...

And above 200... well the Oly can't keep up on noise, DR, sharpness etc.

dpreview did not test E-M1 with EFCS - that's about sharpness, as for DR - DxoMark or http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/, as for noise above deep shadows - that was already said - no replacement for displacement (when photon shot noise dominates vs noise relared to readout/ADC related sources), unless you compare something totally obsolete technological-wise
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Nick Walt

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2014, 04:27:49 pm »

Thank you, everyone. I look forward to resuming photography once I get the new camera and lenses.

Cheers
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Nick Walt

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2014, 11:49:09 am »

My apologies, I locked the thread because I didn't want to ask people to stay on topic and figured that perhaps people no longer wanted to comment about the topic in the original post (it's a strange topic, I know). But, I had some people PM me so figured I'd reopen the thread in case anyone wanted to post (on topic, ya).

Cheers,
Nick
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NancyP

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2014, 02:51:05 pm »

Nick, I will point out one problem with IBIS. IBIS does not work that well for long telephotos. Now, I like to shoot birds, so I have a 400mm f/5.6L lens, older design (inexpensive) but very sharp, and it does not have in-lens image stabilization (and Canon DSLRs do not have IBIS). I have had to work on my holding and my panning technique to get reliably sharp birds in flight photos. A while back I looked into Pentax DSLRs, which are small APS-C IBIS cameras with waterproofing when used with certain Pentax lenses - potentially ideal for someone who wants to photo birds from a kayak (the birds allow a closer approach when one is in a small boat). Pentax users report that the keeper level is decreased with the 300mm f/4 lens as opposed to shorter lenses, and that the keeper rate of the 560mm lens is maybe 20%. However, if you shoot in the shorter telephoto to wide angle range, IBIS sounds pretty good. Pentax has come up with a novel use for the IBIS sensor shifting apparatus - you can put the camera on "astro" mode, and it will rotate the sensor in tandem with the earth's rotation, thereby ensuring that your stars are round, not streaks.
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allegretto

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2014, 03:25:08 pm »

Thanks OP, I find discussions as this fascinating as long as there are no flames and everyone makes a rational case

For example, the page ddjjjaaaa (did I spell it right?) sent me to is fantastic. Alas it doesn't include the 6D specs, but very good info nonetheless. Also does not include what may be my next camera, the A7s. renting it this weekend with adapters for EF and M glass.

Woo-hooo....

Keep good honest questions coming....

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Rand47

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2014, 09:05:29 pm »

Glad you reopened.  One thought I had in reading your responses to the input you've received is, "I wonder if he realizes the significant difference in size and weight for a FF system of the same capability FOV-wise?"  You've talked a lot about your desire for more image quality.  That's certainly understandable, but the gain in absolute image quality (which really only means "how large a print I can make" - not image quality per se, if that makes sense) comes with a price in lugging around larger and heavier gear.  I have both a FF system and a mirrorless APSC system.   While the FF does have the advantage of being able to print larger at "the same quality" as the APSC system, I find that my ability, desire, and willingness to explore a subject is greater with the smaller, lighter, more versatile system.  I often end up with more interesting images from a creative standpoint with the smaller, lighter system.  

The point is, you may have been benefitting from this w/ the EM-1 w/o ever realizing it.  Give that some thought and perhaps rent a FF and a few equivalent lenses and go out and play and see if you've "lost something" in the process even though you've gained something in "absolute" IQ.

I think many of us are being refreshed, creatively, as we've started using the compact sysem cameras.  I know it is true for me.  I'll keep my FF gear, and reach for it when I "need" that next increment of IQ for a specific situation.  But I can tell you that it is happening less and less often as time goes by.  And I'm enjoying photography more and more with the smaller system.  And, if you really want a shocker IQ wise, get your hands on a Sigma Merrill camera and make some big prints from that little brick of a camera.  But that's a whole different discussion from the one you started.

Rand
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 09:18:01 pm by Rand47 »
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Rand Scott Adams

deejjjaaaa

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2014, 10:20:03 pm »

...IBIS does not work that well for long telephotos...A while back I looked into Pentax DSLRs...Pentax users report that the keeper level is decreased with the 300mm f/4 lens as opposed to shorter lenses, and that the keeper rate of the 560mm lens is maybe 20%.
there are different implementations of IBIS... why do you assume that Pentax users are blessed with the decent IBIS at all (not to mention that they are also blessed with mirror slap and absent EFCS...) ???
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2014, 10:22:42 pm »

Alas it doesn't include the 6D specs
but you can do the test and supply the author with your data - he provides software and instructions... and answers questions - so if there is no data for 6D @ http://home.comcast.net/~nikond70/ you can contribute !
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allegretto

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2014, 11:03:55 pm »

Amen to all that...!


Glad you reopened.  One thought I had in reading your responses to the input you've received is, "I wonder if he realizes the significant difference in size and weight for a FF system of the same capability FOV-wise?"  You've talked a lot about your desire for more image quality.  That's certainly understandable, but the gain in absolute image quality (which really only means "how large a print I can make" - not image quality per se, if that makes sense) comes with a price in lugging around larger and heavier gear.  I have both a FF system and a mirrorless APSC system.   While the FF does have the advantage of being able to print larger at "the same quality" as the APSC system, I find that my ability, desire, and willingness to explore a subject is greater with the smaller, lighter, more versatile system.  I often end up with more interesting images from a creative standpoint with the smaller, lighter system.  

The point is, you may have been benefitting from this w/ the EM-1 w/o ever realizing it.  Give that some thought and perhaps rent a FF and a few equivalent lenses and go out and play and see if you've "lost something" in the process even though you've gained something in "absolute" IQ.

I think many of us are being refreshed, creatively, as we've started using the compact sysem cameras.  I know it is true for me.  I'll keep my FF gear, and reach for it when I "need" that next increment of IQ for a specific situation.  But I can tell you that it is happening less and less often as time goes by.  And I'm enjoying photography more and more with the smaller system.  And, if you really want a shocker IQ wise, get your hands on a Sigma Merrill camera and make some big prints from that little brick of a camera.  But that's a whole different discussion from the one you started.

Rand
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Fine_Art

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2014, 02:16:23 am »

For these kinds of decisions you need to build yourself (probably in a spreadsheet) a fuzzy logic system. It is easier than it sounds.

You might want to start with the types of shooting you do in percentages. eg 60% landscape, 30% wildlife, 5% portraits,etc
then list the features you find important. again use some breakdown like % or 1-5.
add whatever else you feel is important like lenses, warranty,etc.
then rate the cameras on those features.
rank things more important/ less important when you cannot come up with numbers.

Calculate it all out. See if your gut feel matches your numbers, if not why not? Play with the system until your decision gels.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 02:19:03 am by Fine_Art »
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2014, 06:10:24 am »

For these kinds of decisions you need to build yourself (probably in a spreadsheet) a fuzzy logic system. It is easier than it sounds.

You might want to start with the types of shooting you do in percentages. eg 60% landscape, 30% wildlife, 5% portraits,etc
then list the features you find important. again use some breakdown like % or 1-5.
add whatever else you feel is important like lenses, warranty,etc.
then rate the cameras on those features.
rank things more important/ less important when you cannot come up with numbers.

Calculate it all out. See if your gut feel matches your numbers, if not why not? Play with the system until your decision gels.

The problem is you could end up with a camera that is not quite right for any scenario.  Truth is - different cameras for different jobs.  So possibly having several systems can work - but of course it is expensive.  But then you can buy some very good gear used.  So a used Canon 5D would make a good landscape camera - along with a one good zoom or a couple of mid-range primes - the 50mm 1.4, 85 1.8 etc.   Buy a different camera for street photography etc.  Currently I have several systems - some acquired over many years - but each has their strengths.

My old Canon 1ds3 - portrait shoots and maybe landscape from the back of a car or involving short walks.

Olympus E-M1 (formerly Panasonic GH2) for weddings and general personal shoots - walking in the forest etc.

Ricoh GR - for unobtrusive street shooting, cycling trips, and just taking anywhere I might suddenly need a good quality picture but don't want to take more gear.

The quest for the perfect compromise will always feel like - a compromise.  The lenses are the key things - you may keep them for many years, the bodies you may well change.

Jim
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Nick Walt

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2014, 02:09:44 pm »

Hi Nancy,

I think Olympus has nailed the IBIS like no other. A truly exceptional stabilisation system by all accounts. The company is releasing a 300mm f4 prime in 2015. Coupled with a 1.4x TC it will give about 700mm. That will be interesting and should tell us if their implementation of IBIS is good with long teles.

Thanks, Rand47. I chose the E-M1 over the X-T1, and the beautiful X-Trans output, because of the handling and features of the camera. I also chose mirrorless because of the size. I wanted a camera that I could carry with my most places and just about all the time. Handling the DSLRs feels like a step backwards because of the size.

I agree that I may end up with two systems. Perhaps the GR for close up and personal, and the DSLR for everything else.

Fine Art, thanks for the tip with the spreadsheet. However, I have been over it all a few times now and I've isolated the core things against a DSLR and will try to address them in some way. Basically, the biggest issue is that a DSLR feels a bit less connected to the process of taking pictures when compared to a mirrorless. However, if I can be certain that this disconnect will mostly go away with experience I will be fine with purchasing a DSLR. When I look at the two systems like this the issues are clear enough for me.

Art, I think full-frame brings a lot more than just resolution to the IQ equation - increased tonality and acuity. Not to mention far less noise and larger dynamic range at higher ISOs. The E-M1 is starting to scream at ISO 1600, whereas the 6D is not even breaking a sweat. The D750 is even better.

The look of the noise is different and the whole image behaves very differently. Even the X-T1 was significantly better than the E-M1. I remember testing in the shop between the two and even that rudimentary test showed a striking difference. I still chose the E-M1, which speaks to the quality of the camera. Outstanding.

My biggest concern is investing money in a system that ultimately undermines my experience.

Reading a bit more about Canon and Nikon, it seems that the people that prefer Canon over Nikon do so because of the usability and handling. This mirrors the experience I had in the couple of hours I've had with both cameras. The Canon is closest to the E-M1 from what I could tell.

I wish the camera companies actually provided road maps of their future technology releases - much like the way Intel and AMD publish road maps.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 02:36:14 pm by Nick Walt »
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2014, 02:30:12 pm »


I wish the camera companies actually provided road maps of their future technology releases - much like the way Intel and AMD publish road maps.

Cheers.

Nick
I think one thing we can confidently predict is that nobody knows what the market/technology will be in five years time.  Look at the massive change in the last ten years.  Look what happened to compact cameras in the past couple of years.  Panansonic only launched their G1 about five years ago - see what mirror less has done since then.  Just buy what does the job now and don't waste time worrying about what's around the corner.  You have already made one expensive error buying and selling your E-M1 - don't repeat that again.

Jim
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allegretto

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2014, 03:04:22 pm »

Better recalculate that 300mm w/1.4 TC... more like 420mm methinks
 
Handling of the Canon System is nice but I prefer it to Nikon on the basis of image tones. If I liked Nikon tones better I'd have kept the great Nikon System I had
.
- agree that ISO limitations are the worst thing about 4/3. I'd be all over it if not for that. IBIS is cool, but the high ISO options that many FF systems afford kind of make up for that. Even my 6D has at least 3 stops of noise on the Oly, more in post

- finally Fuji is a great mid-point. Nice colors, sharp pics

you really can't go wrong, and as said above, don't try to predict where it's going... you'll probably be wrong. Watching is half the fun...



Hi Nancy,

I think Olympus has nailed the IBIS like no other. A truly exceptional stabilisation system by all accounts. The company is releasing a 300mm f4 prime in 2015. Coupled with a 1.4x TC it will give about 700mm. That will be interesting and should tell us if their implementation of IBIS is good with long teles.

Thanks, Rand47. I chose the E-M1 over the X-T1, and the beautiful X-Trans output, because of the handling and features of the camera. I also chose mirrorless because of the size. I wanted a camera that I could carry with my most places and just about all the time. Handling the DSLRs feels like a step backwards because of the size.

I agree that I may end up with two systems. Perhaps the GR for close up and personal, and the DSLR for everything else.

Fine Art, thanks for the tip with the spreadsheet. However, I have been over it all a few times now and I've isolated the core things against a DSLR and will try to address them in some way. Basically, the biggest issue is that a DSLR feels a bit less connected to the process of taking pictures when compared to a mirrorless. However, if I can be certain that this disconnect will mostly go away with experience I will be fine with purchasing a DSLR. When I look at the two systems like this the issues are clear enough for me.

Art, I think full-frame brings a lot more than just resolution to the IQ equation - increased tonality and acuity. Not to mention far less noise and larger dynamic range at higher ISOs. The E-M1 is starting to scream at ISO 1600, whereas the 6D is not even breaking a sweat. The D750 is even better.

The look of the noise is different and the whole image behaves very differently. Even the X-T1 was significantly better than the E-M1. I remember testing in the shop between the two and even that rudimentary test showed a striking difference. I still chose the E-M1, which speaks to the quality of the camera. Outstanding.

My biggest concern is investing money in a system that ultimately undermines my experience.

Reading a bit more about Canon and Nikon, it seems that the people that prefer Canon over Nikon do so because of the usability and handling. This mirrors the experience I had in the couple of hours I've had with both cameras. The Canon is closest to the E-M1 from what I could tell.

I wish the camera companies actually provided road maps of their future technology releases - much like the way Intel and AMD publish road maps.

Cheers.
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Choosing the Right Camera System
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2014, 03:53:49 pm »

Even my 6D has at least 3 stops of noise on the Oly, more in post

some people say that during the war sin/cos might get above 1.0... in fact it is even sligtly less than 2 stops above deep shadows and a little more than 1 stop in deep shadows at very high gains... that is if you take E-M1 and not ancient Kodak CCD or 12mp Panasonic sensor  ;) ...

older E-M5 vs the kings of high gains (D4s and 1Dx) in deep shadows (note that theres ISOs are nominal ISOs, not Ssat ISO as in DxOMark graphs) = http://home.comcast.net/~nikond70/Charts/PDR.htm#OM-D%20E-M5,EOS%201D%20X,D4S
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 03:56:41 pm by deejjjaaaa »
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