Choosing the Right Camera System

[Chrisso26]

I cannot seriously believe anyone thinks there is more than a smidgen difference in image quality between Nikon and Canon - or even Sony or Pentax for that matter. Even the Oly or Panansonic are good enough most of the time.  Unless you have a very specific requirement - perhaps a tilt-shift lens or a particular need for 36 megapixels.

Nick - I said it before - you are over thinking all this.  You're only buying a camera not the company. 

The voice of reason! Seriously.

[Telecaster]

IMO it's time for Nick to ignore all of us and make his decision on his own.   

-Dave-

[BernardLanguillier]

Michael Reichman, in his article about the Pentax 645z, makes the point that how a camera feels and operates will often trump technical specs in his decision making. That works for me as well.

That's certainly true. The way a camera feels in the hand, the viewfinder, live view, the quality of the auto-iso implementation, the damping of the mirror,...  are essential for some types of photography.

On the other hand, aspects such as how plasticy a non touch screen feels (and the D750 screen feels very robust to me), .00x % differences in the contrast of the top LCD display, the degree of resistance of the rotative dials in a newly manufacturered camera (we all know those change after a few days usage),... are secundary for anyone intending to use his camera to take photographs.

As far as all cameras offering identical image quality, until the current generation of Sony sensors I was never able to capture comfortably daily scenes such as this one,... always ending up with noisy shadows, un-natural transitions in highlights,... So I don't share the marxist view that everything is the same. I didn't have to look very far, this image was shot last night.



IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard

[allegretto]

I'm accepting about 75% of what you say. If you see at most a smidgen, then go with that... no problem.

But to my eye there are definite differences between the rendering of different bodies. Quite a big one some cases and then there are "ergonomic issues" as well

All will take good pictures, you're right, but they are not equivalent

An artist should be able to use the palette and gamut they like. Then sweeten to suit their taste as well. it's all part of the fun of this democratic hobby.

One needn't like or emulate anyone else to appreciate and accept their preferences. That's silly

Guys, guys, guys..... Please! 

We are talking cameras here - it's not rocket science.  I cannot seriously believe anyone thinks there is more than a smidgen difference in image quality between Nikon and Canon - or even Sony or Pentax for that matter. Even the Oly or Panansonic are good enough most of the time.  Unless you have a very specific requirement - perhaps a tilt-shift lens or a particular need for 36 megapixels.

Nick - I said it before - you are over thinking all this.  You're only buying a camera not the company.  Don't try to speculate the future intentions of any of the companies.  Whatever body you buy, within three years you will be changing it because it will be soooo dated.  They all take good pictures - if you have the skill.  Just see which one fits your hand and eye the best - you will not go wrong.

Jim

[Chrisso26]

Sure.
Everyone should use what they like, but that choice is going to be different for everyone. Some weighted more to ergonomics, some weighted more to IQ and every stop inbetween.
This is why in the end you can't make someone's mind up for them.
In my experience as a musician I see people agonising over minor details and spec sheets, when in reality they should just get on and start making music (pictures in this case).
A professional photojournalist is going to achieve better results out of a box brownie than I ever will.
So sure, try and choose the best tool for the job, but there is a great danger of over thinking it, and getting lost down a rabbit hole of spec sheets and conflicting advice.

[synn]

At this point, everyone is basically saying the same thing. 

[Jim Pascoe]

Exactly - and the point being that they all can make good pictures - you just have to find the one that works for you - and the only way to do that is to get one and use it extensively.

My Canon 1Ds3 is a superb picture making tool - I cannot fault it and after six years it's like an extension to my eye.  That's not to say it's better than anything else - it works for me.

Jim

[Nick Walt]

Well, gentlemen, I just got back from the camera store where I spent the last three hours playing with the D750 and 6D. Along with the Fuji X-T1 and X-E1 (for about five minutes).

Both the Canon and Nikon continued to grow on me and I was soon chimping like a champ. Then something surprising started to happen. The D750 started to grow on me more than the 6D.

Now I just need to work out if the price premium for the Nikon is worth it for me. It's about $1300 more than the Canon equivalent of the Nikon body and the 70-200 f4 VR3. Which is an additional lens for the 6D.

Bernard, I think you hit the nail on the head in your post about getting clean shadows in your night street shot. It is one of the key reasons why I decided to go full-frame. That's a great night shot. Lovely colours and tonality. Is that the D750? What lens did you use?

[synn]

If price is a concern, the 610 might also figure into the equation.

[Nick Walt]

Thanks, Synn. I looked at the D610 and I agree it would be a good option.

The only negative I have about the Nikon zooms that I looked at, the 16-35 f4 and 70-200 f4, is that they aren't weathersealed. I also wish Nikon did a weathersealed, VR, f4 version of the 14-24 f2.8. Unfortunately, Photozone.de only gives the 16-35 f4 a 2.5 star rating.

EDIT: Photozone.de may have reviewed the VRI version and not the VRII of the 16-35 f4.

I did find that the D750 hunted a bit in the shop with the 70-200 f4. I was wondering if that might have been an earlier version of the lens. But the camera was configured to use a single AF point and I didn't know how to set the group AF. The 6D kept up with the D750 when using the cross-type single AF point.

I was reading about the Samsung NX1 AF today. It has over 100 cross-type PDAF points covering about 90% of the sensor. Over 200 sensors in total. Samsung is aiming at introducing disruptive technology into the mix and if the camera and lenses perform they may just succeed.

[synn]

Nikon has produced only one version of the 16-35. I have it and having used it literally on the edge of some serious waves (camera was on a gorilla pod on a rock getting full brunt of the waves) as well as in a decent drizzle, I can assure you that unless you plan to dunk it completely in water, it will do fine. Follow the link in my signature and you will see images taken with it in several conditions.

I also have the 70-200 f/4 and it is actually one of the fastest lenses to acquire focus on my D800. Perhaps, you had it in AF-C and/ or focus priority modes? Press the little button on the left side of the lens mount, turn the two control wheels until you get "AF S and 51 point" or "AF C and 3D tracking" and see how fast it snaps on to target.

I would suggest this article to learn more about Nikon AF features and how to use them: http://photographylife.com/dslr-autofocus-modes-explained

It is also a very good site to look for real world Nikon gear reviews. Both those lenses have been reviewed by them.

[jjj]

Like I said before, I'd get canons for the lenses, but this thread is the first one where I have seen someone praise canon's ergonomics over nikons.

Never used a Nikon that I didn't find clunky. And I've seen plenty of others prefer Canon handling. Nikon always feel like they do things differently from others, just to be different and not for any real reason. But if you use only Nikon stuff that's not an issue.

To this date, I can't understand why canon puts the power button in the worst areas possible and not around the shutter release, which makes switching on and shooting such a natural thing to do.

Or easier to knock accidentally.....

Or the incredibly weird angle of the front control dial. Or the amazingly useful direct print button. Their fidgety joystick never lets one select the right focus point as precisely as the nikon multi controller and I don't think they wrap back when reaching the edge of af point coverage either. They won't let you swap the functions of the two dials. Up until recently, spot metering was not tied to currently selected AF point in canons. The speedlight system is unnecessarily complex. And so on. In fact, canon's iterative improvements scream "design by commitee".

I have my fair share of beef with nikon, which I have mentioned in this forum many times, but ergonomics and usability is definitely not amongst them.

But if you used Canons all the time, you'd probably find Nikons a bit odd and I've never noticed any odd angle re the dial near button, but the dials certainly could be improved. Though the speedlight's complexity would definitely still be pants no matter how often you used them. I never use the AF controller, as the only AF system I ever liked was the eye control on the EOS 3. It worked perfectly and frustratingly never been used on any camera again.
The main difference I find between the two systems is that I need an instruction manual for one and not the other. Whenever I used Nikons I've had to ask other people including Nikon staff how to do something quite basic and every time they've been stumped. Any camera that I can't work basics out after a few minutes playing with it has not exactly been designed well.

All manufacturers should allow you to customize every button/dial on their bodies, that way everyone would be happy.

[Nick Walt]

Thanks, synn. It looks like the 16-35 f4 ED VR started off with VR II.

I'll check out the AF on the 70-200 next chance I get. Good to hear that it is resistant to water spray. I'll be walking around India with it and the dust can come up there, too. Apparently it does have a seal on the lens mount.

I think I can see the two lenses in my shopping basket. The other option is that I just buy a single ultra wide angle 20mm f1.8 prime. But honestly, it is nice to have a whole bunch wrapped up in a zoom. Not sure how good the lens is compared to primes, though. Apparently the zoom doesn't have great micro-contrast.

[jjj]

Apologies, but I don't see a single point in your list that affects significantly actual image capturing abilities.

Is that because his preference wasn't for the Nikon? he gave plenty of reasons that make sense for himself. I realise the fact he preferred the non-Nikon must cause you pain, but you must learn to accept not everyone wants a Nikon.  

The only conclusion I can draw from your decision to focus on these points is that your interest is not in capturing images but in handling cameras in a way not related to the the capture of photographs.

That is of course fine, but we would have saved time had you told use from the onset that photographic outcome isn't a priority of yours.

Well Nick wouldn't be upgrading if that wasn't the case.
Good handling of a camera is probably more important than absolute image quality for most people, unless one is an anal pixel peeper. Most modern cameras produce cracking results and if a camera has crappy ergonomics I don't care if it's image quality is slightly better if it has handling that I do not like or worse gets in the way of getting the shot. The Fuji XT1 does that for me with its annoying retro shutter dial, I'd consider buying one otherwise.

[BernardLanguillier]

Is that because his preference wasn't for the Nikon? he gave plenty of reasons that make sense for himself. I realise the fact he preferred the non-Nikon must cause you pain, but you must learn to accept not everyone wants a Nikon.  

Instead of your usual personal attacks and aggressive tone, how about reacting on the content for a change? Nick has himself stated that he prefers the way the D750 feels in his hands, so this isn't about camera handling.

I just don't understand his rationale, that disturbs the engineer in me.

I guess you do since you seem to share his point of view. Are you able to explain better than him?

Well Nick wouldn't be upgrading if that wasn't the case.

How so? I see tens of people around me who keep buying new cameras but hardly produce any images with them.

Cheers,
Bernard

[synn]

@jjj: Fair enough, maybe the Canonfolk see Nikon just as weird. 
I started my film journey with a dinky ol' Vivitar SLR and when I was about to make the digital switch, I looked at a Canon 350D (I think?) first. I remember being infuriated by the extreme plastickyness, the tiny size and so many buttons sharing functions. Tried a D70s which felt man-sized, was built well, had a dedicated button for pretty much everything etc. Never looked back.

I have also worked extensively with the 5D Mk II since then and found many of the design choices still questionable. Anyway, different strokes for different folks.

@Nick: Do remember that to complete the weather sealing for Canon and Nikon lenses (Even the pro lenses, as advised by both companies), you need to add a clear filter in the front. I don't do this as I do not want to add another optical element in the imaging pathway if I can help it. So far, so good.

The Canikon lenses are weather resistant, not fully weather SEALED, like some Olympus and Pentax lenses are.

[Chrisso26]

Nick has himself stated that he prefers the way the D750 feels in his hands, so this isn't about camera handling.

I just don't understand his rationale, that disturbs the engineer in me.

He said:

Both the Canon and Nikon continued to grow on me and I was soon chimping like a champ. Then something surprising started to happen. The D750 started to grow on me more than the 6D.

No mention of 'handling'. Who knows why something grows on you more than another product. Does everything have to be rational....have a rationale?

[Nick Walt]

Ah, good to know, synn.

Regarding the weather sealing, it would be good if the manufacturers would introduce a proper IPX rating.

Guys, I can understand that my comments might not make sense. Part of that probably comes from me trying to articulate something with which I just don't yet have enough of an understanding. I guess that is why most people who have a lot of experience and skill, in any field, don't interact so much with beginners unless they are specifically instructing or helping them. It can be just too frustrating haha.

Beginners and intermediate learners come to understand their own needs and wants over time and through experience and I'm trying to bypass this process and anticipate what gear will keep me satisfied for the next few years. Which is what Jim is seeing, I think, and why he is suggesting I take a step back from so much analysis. I have to agree.

Cheers,
Nick

[synn]

They might, but imagine trying to sell your Samsung body while in Thailand or getting a new lens while on the way to india. Won't be anywhere as easy as with canikon or your old Olympus. At least for the near future.

Everything has its own pluses and minuses. It's all about correlating with our own priorities.

[BernardLanguillier]

Btw, one thing to be aware of with the D750 is that metering seems pretty inconsistent with non Nikon and/or non chipped lenses (probably non chipped lenses) such as the Zeiss CFi 150mm f4 I was shooting with yesterday.



Great lens btw, don't know why I didn't try these Hassy V Zeiss wonders earlier!

Cheers,
Bernard