Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?

In Denial

21 (60%)

Looking at the Whole Picture

14 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 34

[NancyP]

"The unwashed masses" who want to shoot with a full-sized camera (as opposed to a phone or sub-compact) want a camera with good ergonomics and overall functionality. Ease of use is a huge seller of cameras. If a camera doesn't feel right in the hand, if the controls are badly placed, if the menus stink, the people who want to enjoy the process of photography are not happy. Even the geeks want cameras that are appealing to use - that blasted aluminum brick design of the Sigma DP Merrills only became tolerable with the addition of third-party L-bracket-grips.

[allegretto]

I am a Canon user, the last 40 years.

then sit down with me, share a glass of Canon Kool-Aide and let's see what kind of rabbits Canon pulls out of its hat in the next couple months

Think it cute that Canon did not blow its load at Photokina. A lot of noise there.

They will wait for Oct-Nov for guys like you and me to buy the 5D Mk IV or 6D Mk ii with 54MPx and high ISO performance. DR too, of course. For our "Christmas Present" to ourselves

Nikon has a couple of great cameras I'd like to play with, but I have some Canon glass that's just itching for resolution

[allegretto]

"The unwashed masses" who want to shoot with a full-sized camera (as opposed to a phone or sub-compact) want a camera with good ergonomics and overall functionality. Ease of use is a huge seller of cameras. If a camera doesn't feel right in the hand, if the controls are badly placed, if the menus stink, the people who want to enjoy the process of photography are not happy. Even the geeks want cameras that are appealing to use - that blasted aluminum brick design of the Sigma DP Merrills only became tolerable with the addition of third-party L-bracket-grips.

Amen..!!!

RRS makes that camera hold-able

[NancyP]

Isn't the high end studio market (with tethering) dominated by MF?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Isn't the high end studio market (with tethering) dominated by MF?

From our Pro forum:

... The D800 files where as good if not better than the Leaf Aptus 75 I used to own.

It was after I purchase the D800E that I sold all my large format, medium format and D3x equipment as it all became redundant...

[allegretto]

After I got my Nikon 999 I dumped my wife and kids, quit my day job, sold all my Earthly possessions (except my trusty Nikkor lenses) and now I just walk the Earth, taking pictures, studying kung-fu and meditating.

[BernardLanguillier]

After I got my Nikon 999 I...

Those Nikon trolls will never stop!

Go do your yoga and let Canon die in peace!

Cheers,
Bernard

[allegretto]

Those Nikon trolls will never stop!

Go do your yoga and let Canon die in peace!

Cheers,
Bernard

Huh… what…!

[Chris_Brown]

Canon net sales 2013: $35,500,000,000
Nikon net sales 2013: $10,500,000,000

Canon's POV of the situation:

[allegretto]

Canon net sales 2013: $35,500,000,000
Nikon net sales 2013: $10,500,000,000

Canon's POV of the situation:

so that's what a Hasselblad looks like...

[Geraldo Garcia]

so that's what a Hasselblad looks like...

"Cover Photo:
The Cinema EOS System Its ultra-high-sensitivity 4K camera succeeded in capturing the world’s-first video of the comet ISON from the International Space Station. (The picture is aconcept image.)"

[BJL]

Canon net sales 2013: $35,500,000,000
Nikon net sales 2013: $10,500,000,000

The numbers you cite are for all of each company's products, and for Canon, a great majority of that is not the photographic equipment under discussion here. (Nikon's photographic division is a far large fraction of its total business).

Do you have numbers for Canon and Nikon's interchangeable lens cameras and lenses, since that is the focus of this discussion?

[Chris_Brown]

The numbers you cite are for all of each company's products, and for Canon, a great majority of that is not the photographic equipment under discussion here. (Nikon's photographic division is a far large fraction of its total business).

Do you have numbers for Canon and Nikon's interchangeable lens cameras and lenses, since that is the focus of this discussion?

Read the report! Page 11 for an overview. 

I don't assume that Canon builds internal walls between divisions. Technology developed by one division is shared among the others as needed, and as is profitable.

With Sony manufacturing sensors for Nikon, Phase One & Hassy, I do wonder if Canon has evaluated being an OEM supplier to other camera/electronics companies. Maybe their licensing terms are too restricting. And with Samsung now jumping into the pool, I suspect the water will be getting warmer.

Samsung gross profit 2013: $70,550,000,000

[John Koerner]

Read the report! Page 11 for an overview. 

I don't assume that Canon builds internal walls between divisions. Technology developed by one division is shared among the others as needed, and as is profitable.

With Sony manufacturing sensors for Nikon, Phase One & Hassy, I do wonder if Canon has evaluated being an OEM supplier to other camera/electronics companies. Maybe their licensing terms are too restricting. And with Samsung now jumping into the pool, I suspect the water will be getting warmer.

Samsung gross profit 2013: $70,550,000,000

Gross profit here, net sales above.

.

[BJL]

Read the report! Page 11 for an overview.  

I read it, and that was my point: the Imaging Systems Business Unit accounts for only 39% of the revenue that you quote of Canon, whereas "Imaging Products" are 74% of Nikon's revenues, and Canon's "Imaging" unit is more diverse, with things like printers, camcorders and broadcast equipment that Nikon does not have.  So the total company-wide revenue numbers you headlined are useless as a comparison of the "system camera bodies and lenses" sector that we are discussing.  As to technology sharing, surely a better way to measure the benefits of that it to look at the consequences as indicated by sales, revenues and such for the product sector we are discussing, not saying "this company is bigger and and more diversified". After all, by that corporate-wide net sales measure, the ranking is:
Samsung > Sony, Panasonic (roughly a tie, each twice as big as Canon) > Canon > Nikon.

The fact that Samsung Electronics is a giant due to its diverse strengths in areas like big screen TV's and mobile phones (not to mention the washing machines and refrigerators and ship-bulding etc. of other divisions of Samsung) does not tell me much about its prospects in system cameras.

Samsung gross profit 2013: $70,550,000,000

[chez]

The numbers you cite are for all of each company's products, and for Canon, a great majority of that is not the photographic equipment under discussion here. (Nikon's photographic division is a far large fraction of its total business).

Do you have numbers for Canon and Nikon's interchangeable lens cameras and lenses, since that is the focus of this discussion?

Actually  Canon's imagining division revenue was $13,799,000 which is a lot closer to Nikon's revenue for the year.

[BernardLanguillier]

So we have 56% of voters in denial about the denial of Canon's denial?

What exactly does that tell us about the age of the captain?

Cheers,
Bernard

[BJL]

Actually  Canon's imagining division revenue was $13,799,000 which is a lot closer to Nikon's revenue for the year.

And as I (and the annual report) said, a chunk of that is "printers, camcorders and broadcast equipment", so how do their system camera and lenses operations compare?

Anyway, it's all rather silly to measure the virtues and prospects a company's high end photographic products simply by revenues. How about looking at the trends in their products instead?


P. S. I am anyway sure that Canon and Nikon's SLR divisions are both doing fine; compacts seem to be what is mainly dragging down the corporate divisions that make "cameras that cannot make phone calls".

[MoreOrLess]

I also think that Canon looks at the photographer who needs high pixel count, without über-autofocus, is a niche market compared to all the amateurs and PJ/Sports pros who utilize autofocus w/ high frame rates. This tipped my vote to "whole picture".

I can see why Canon thinks/thought this way as the AF/FPS market likely views FF DSLR's as the ultimate tool for theior profession where as in the high res market digital MF likely takes that spot. However I think Canon underestimated the degree to which FF could advance to combat MF as evidence by the D800 success and perhaps put too much of the 5D2's success down to video rather than its high resolution.

The lack of a high resolution Canon has IMHO allowed Nikon back into the game with FF DSLR's when it looked like Canon was going to dominant.

[BJL]

However I think Canon underestimated the degree to which FF could advance to combat MF as evidence by the D800 success ...

What fraction of the SLR market do you think "MF replacement" is for either Canon or Nikon?  My guess is that it is one nice source of profit in the mix, and adds to brand prestige which helps to sell far higher volume, lower-priced models, but it is far from the dominant source of revenues or profits in their SLR divisions, or even in their "professional and serious amateur SLR" divisions, where journalism, sports, wildlife and such are bigger markets.

Warning: the opinions and wish-lists expressed in this forum (like many online enthusiast forums) are massively skewed relative to the overall actual real-world market for interchangeable lens cameras!  As an example, if the enthusiasms expressed in posts here were a representative sample of purchasing patterns, the camera market MF makers would all be clamoring to ditch the puny, Japanese-created 645 format in favor of cameras with 6x6 or larger sensors.  (Probably with a permanently attached single focal length lens too.)