The New Leica S (Typ 007) and Leica S-E (Typ 006)

[peterv]

David Farkas published his in-depth write-up on the new S:

http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/09/photokina-2014-day-2-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-leica-s-typ-007/

I found it very interesting and thought I'd share the link, no affiliation.

[Theodoros]

David Farkas published his in-depth write-up on the new S:

http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/09/photokina-2014-day-2-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-leica-s-typ-007/

I found it very interesting and thought I'd share the link, no affiliation.

Very interesting indeed!

[JV]

Excellent!  I agree.  Very very interesting write-up.

It clearly highlights the main features of the S Typ 007: video, speed and low light performance.

And those might not be the priorities of a lot of current S2/S shooters.

[Theodoros]

I think one of the most interesting points, is the attention given to LV quality. It seems that the 007 will have the best LV in the market... I can't stop thinking that soon there should be a version of the sensor at 36x48mm size for 48mp of resolution that will be used for a new Sinarback... With such LV quality it will be a pity if they don't make the back.

[Atina]

All-in-all, the S (Typ 007) seems to really deliver. Some might be disappointed by Leica’s decision not to bump the resolution slightly to 50MP, but to reiterate Stephan’s point, Leica is focused on delivering practical, real-world quality and usability.

I don't know what to make of this.

Such a baffling statement, don't you think?

I love Theodoros's enthusiasm! He and Dmitry Medvedev will be the first ones to buy the Typ 007. I can't wait!

[Theodoros]

I don't know what to make of this.

Such a baffling statement, don't you think?

I love Theodoros's enthusiasm! He and Dmitry Medvedev will be the first ones to buy the Typ 007. I can't wait!

What's buffaloing about the statement? That more pixels are irrelevant for image quality? ...is that it?

[Atina]

What is baffling is that, what, Leaf Credo isn't offering real-world quality and usability?

One thing, for example.

Luminous Landscape should really interview these three people, Stephan Schulz, Toni Felsner, and Peter Karbe, to see their way of thinking.

[Nick Rains]

David Farkas's report has stolen all my thunder as I was going to do a detailed write up myself. His is very comprehensive but I do have two points to add which he has not put in (unless I missed it).

1. The long exposure time remains fixed at 120 seconds and only at base ISO. Increase the ISO and the limit goes down in proportion. I had discussed this with Stephan Shultz when the S2 came out because, having shot with the S2 for two years, it was a feature that irritated me no end. It's the same on the M240 BTW, but 60 secs is the limit. Interestingly, when I raised the subject again with Stephan on Monday and I explained that all the Sonys, Canons and Nikons etc can do open shutter for as long as you like (more or less anyway) he said 'then we should do this too'. This bodes well for a firmware mod down the track and maybe for the M too!

2. The DoF / Hyper Focal display numbers are based on a CoC of 3 microns. This is the same as for film and is what the M lens scales are based on too. it really should be 1 micron now high res sensors are capable of printing up to 20" x 30" with ease. I suggested this to Stephan and he thought this could be an option in the menu maybe, in the future.

Lastly, I cannot stress just how fast this camera is, 3.5fps feels amazing and the AF is transformed. It's a game changer.

And last-lastly, for those concerned about the S keeping the same sensor size, 50MP is only about 10% bigger than 37MP because the other backs are a 4:3 ratio not 2:3 - so you need to crop them to get the same aspect. 50MP becomes about 45MP. 7500px wide vs 8200px wide. 10% more. Not much. Makes the S look like a bargain when you consider you get a free (good) camera with every sensor!

[Theodoros]

What is baffling is that, what, Leaf Credo isn't offering real-world quality and usability?

One thing, for example.

Luminous Landscape should really interview these three people, Stephan Schulz, Toni Felsner, and Peter Karbe, to see their way of thinking.

Don't know what Credo is offering, I haven't tried it... But what I know is this: 1. It is more expensive than an S (007). 2. It doesn't replace a DSLR for what a SLR is doing. 3. It needs a camera in front of it to be able to compete with an S(007) at even higher cost. 4. It doesn't cope well with view cameras (the sensor) while a 6μm pixel size with no micro lenses on would...
If you add to the (1) above that people investing on an S will no longer need a DSLR system, you can easily understand why many more than you think will be customers of Leica... Now if one thinks that the S(007) will have lesser IQ because it uses less pixels for the same image area size... that's his problem not mine... IMO 6 microns is already a very small pixel, ....especially for a Cmos pixel where read noise at base ISO is much higher than a CCD, so I 'd rather have that 25% more pixel size than miss it. 

Besides... I already have 7 su-pe-rb lenses to go with an S....

[bcooter]

Sales of he new S will largely depend on file quality,will it be as good or better than CCD at pixel level?

I don't know what pixel level means but I guess we all see things differently.  I do hope the cmos looks as pretty as the ccd camera.

This is a small part of a project, mostly shot at 640 iso, mostly pushed about 1/2 stop in lightroom.  (no retouch or cleaning up yet, just out of the processor)

I killed some color noise but left the luminance noise in as it's pretty, though with modern processors you can kill the noise in any image, I just think smooth and perfect sometimes is kind of boring.

Anyway. Leica S2, Contax 80mm F2 and 55 mm 3.5



IMO

BC

[peterv]

Beautiful images, BC! Tungsten light?

2. The DoF / Hyper Focal display numbers are based on a CoC of 3 microns. This is the same as for film and is what the M lens scales are based on too. it really should be 1 micron now high res sensors are capable of printing up to 20" x 30" with ease. I suggested this to Stephan and he thought this could be an option in the menu maybe, in the future

Thanks! That's very useful info, and I think you're right about the 1 micron CoC. An option in the menu somewhere would be handy, though I'd just leave it on the 1 micron, to be safe.

[bcooter]

Tungsten light?

Yes . . . Tungsten it is PeterV and you win the 2015 Dodge Dart.

All you have to do is answer the brand of lights, wattage and suggested retail price.

IMO

BC

[MrSmith]

Arri 650's 1k's and some inkys but not the plastic 800's without the fresnel, bit of tough spun or scrim added
No idea of the price but they are £1-2.5k
My prize is cooter portrait session with make-over and various gauche OTT executive bling and fake guns.

[bcooter]

Arri 650's 1k's and some inkys but not the plastic 800's without the fresnel, bit of tough spun or scrim added
No idea of the price but they are £1-2.5k
My prize is cooter portrait session with make-over and various gauche OTT executive bling and fake guns.

So close to the Dodge Dart.

Your right on everything about the Spun and of course the rules stated (in very fine white print on a white page) the prices had to be in Japanese Yen.

Thanks for entering.

IMO

BC

[MrSmith]

That's o.k. Just knowing I was right about the lighting before the official announcement was enough for me
(Obviously there's so much more to it than that)

[BernardLanguillier]

David Farkas published his in-depth write-up on the new S:

http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/09/photokina-2014-day-2-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-leica-s-typ-007/

Did I undertand correctly that the 4K video mode only uses less than 25% of the sensors pixels? Per my quick math it would be an area equal to 26*14mm, meaning that it is only slightly larger than an APS-C sensor size?

Is it just me or, considering the video specs also (50 Mbit/sec), does the a7s look like a much better option for 4K at 10% of the price and over a 36*19mm area which is more than twice larger while also doing a 1:1 sensor mapping?

Sorry guys, I don't understand the hype on video.

Cheers,
Bernard

[craigrudlin]

(1) The LCD is not articulated.  My experience with Nikon and even image review on the S2, is that without
articulation, the LCD is not very useful in daylight "in the field."  So, the "live view" may not be practical.
Also, the resolution of the LCD is less than desirable. I would have expected 1+ MP as a minimum.  Also, note
it is not sapphire glass. The camera is 25K, so I do not believe these are too much to ask for.

(2) 50MP may be only "10 % more" IF you crop to 3:2 ratio.  BUT, many compositions work as well or better
square or 4:3, in which case, you would be using all or nearly all the 50MP, so I would respectfully disagree that
50MP is not significantly better than 37 or 39.  I make very large prints, every MP helps.

(3) From a creative perspective, it would be nice to have the ability to do multiple exposures as well as very
long exposures... as far as I can discern, neither is possible.

[bcooter]

You got to see the footage before anyone knows about leica video, though aps c which is close to super 35mm in cinema digital terms is about the perfect format.

If you move a 35mm FF A7s at anything past "I'm so stoned I can't feel my hands speed", you'll get jellowcam that will give you vertigo.

Also the A7s is a 8 bit video file vs. 10 bit of the Leica, 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 which is twice the colors, easier to grade.

Now the issue will be finding a wide angle for the Leica, but I'll bet they come out with at least a PL converter because they're the only company that gives full functionality of a competitors lenses, both Contax and Hasselblad and they make their own PL's.

In regards to the viewfinder, you'll probably use a separate recorder like the Shogun, which the Sony needs for 4k and Leica is showing at their stand in annoucekina.

Then again all of this is a mute point cause Leica isn't competing with Sony, or probably any Japanese manufacturer.  

That's not the crowd their aiming for.

But if the video is good, really good, then that's killer and adds to the value of the camera, but if you don't shoot video then it doesn't matter does it?



IMO

BC

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I would suggest you are mistaken on this. In all probability, M-lenses scales are based on 1/30 mm, that is 30 microns, 10 micron scales would be a good thing, but 1 microns is totally useless, as the sensors are probably around 6 microns.

You simply messed up with a factor of 10. Can happen to us all.

Best regards
Erik

David Farkas's report has stolen all my thunder as I was going to do a detailed write up myself. His is very comprehensive but I do have two points to add which he has not put in (unless I missed it).



2. The DoF / Hyper Focal display numbers are based on a CoC of 3 microns. This is the same as for film and is what the M lens scales are based on too. it really should be 1 micron now high res sensors are capable of printing up to 20" x 30" with ease. I suggested this to Stephan and he thought this could be an option in the menu maybe, in the future.

[Nick Rains]

craigrudlin : long exposures no, not past 120 secs but multiple exposures? It does auto bracketing well but do you mean actual multiple shots in one image? If so then no.

bcooter : are you sure it's 10 bit video output? It was described to me as 8 bit 4.2.2.