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Author Topic: Pentax 645Z review  (Read 15336 times)

michael

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2014, 02:40:08 pm »

Of course. And sorry if I seemed snarky. I didn't mean to.

I just find that fixating on that last 2% of IQ is a distraction. But if it's what turns ones crank, then who am I to nay say?

Michael
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2014, 02:41:16 pm »

Another quote from Michaels Phlog shooting with the 645Z is the following:

The ISO just was what ended up being needed, and as I've discovered with the Pentax 645z, anything up to and including ISO 3200 shows hardly any noise or reduction in dynamic range.


There is always a (significant) reduction in dynamic range when cranking up the ISO. Just look at DxO graphs for various sensors.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2014, 03:05:45 pm »

Hi,

Now, I don't feel it that way.

In a way, I always think about your discussion with Ctein, he often used the term 'good enough'. You may ask him what he means, but he felt that 16 MP on his 4/3 was good enough for A2. I don't know what he means by good enough.

Another way to put it, I don't think small prints, like A2 are large enough to show a difference between well processed 4/3, APS-C, FF 135 or MFD. I have never used 4/3, but I do have experience with APS-C, FF (135) and P45+. I have little doubt that the latest and greatest MFDs can outperform what I have, but I don't know if they outperform the lower resolution stuff on real images, like a flower shot if printed at moderate size (like A2).

With the cost differential of MFD I may feel that making the best use of the 135 platforms may be a great way of saving money, compared to buying MFD stuff at 3-5X times the cost and not utilising it fully.

It is a little bit like the A7r. It seems to have a measurable loss of sharpness due to vibration, but it has not been observed by many authors. So you can waste something like 20-40% of image quality, without noticing. Probably has to with "good enough" and vision limits.

Best regards
Erik

Of course. And sorry if I seemed snarky. I didn't mean to.

I just find that fixating on that last 2% of IQ is a distraction. But if it's what turns ones crank, then who am I to nay say?

Michael

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Erik Kaffehr
 

Telecaster

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2014, 03:21:05 pm »

Hmmm… If I feel like printing 645D or A7r photos postcard size I'll darn well do it. And if that makes the pixel police squirm I'll stop down to f/32 and max out the ISO for good measure.

 ::)

-Dave-
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michael

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2014, 03:33:59 pm »

Another quote from Michaels Phlog shooting with the 645Z is the following:

The ISO just was what ended up being needed, and as I've discovered with the Pentax 645z, anything up to and including ISO 3200 shows hardly any noise or reduction in dynamic range.


There is always a (significant) reduction in dynamic range when cranking up the ISO. Just look at DxO graphs for various sensors.

Arggggggg.

OK. I give up. The pixel police win.

Excuse me, I have to go out and do some photography.

Michael


<
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2014, 03:51:36 pm »

Hi,

Message from squad car #2: I have been on a workshop with Hans and he shoots great images. But he was at Hewlet Packard, the company formerly known as Tandem Computers, so he knows a bit about bits, too…

Best regards
Erik

Arggggggg.

OK. I give up. The pixel police win.

Excuse me, I have to go out and do some photography.

Michael


<
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Erik Kaffehr
 

pegelli

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2014, 04:01:30 pm »

Message from squad car #2: I have been on a workshop with Hans and he shoots great images.
Agree. I love the pictures on his website and might take a workshop with him sometime.
But sometimes his interpretation of DXO graphs overlooks some critical details in the fine print, but hey even the police makes mistakes sometimes  ;)
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pieter, aka pegelli

Hans Kruse

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2014, 04:33:29 pm »

Arggggggg.

OK. I give up. The pixel police win.

Excuse me, I have to go out and do some photography.

Michael


<

I think it is key and important to distinguish between facts and what matters to you. I do that distinction myself and I will divert from the facts when I feel it makes sense. So what I wanted to say is: If a factual incorrect statement is made it is better to admit it than try to work around it. What matters in real photography is anyway much more complex and not just a matter of MTF curves etc. So may advice to you, if you can appreciate it, is to clearly distinguish. You do fall into that trap yourself rather often, so please don't come and call me the pixel police ;)

Hans Kruse

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2014, 04:34:23 pm »

Agree. I love the pictures on his website and might take a workshop with him sometime.
But sometimes his interpretation of DXO graphs overlooks some critical details in the fine print, but hey even the police makes mistakes sometimes  ;)

I'm sorry I didn't come back to take up that thread ;)

Hans Kruse

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2014, 05:09:52 pm »

Hi,

Message from squad car #2: I have been on a workshop with Hans and he shoots great images. But he was at Hewlet Packard, the company formerly known as Tandem Computers, so he knows a bit about bits, too…

Best regards
Erik


Thanks Erik, I have a feeling it's not about being right or wrong. Critique is not welcome it seems. You know I'm pragmatic and do not always do myself what I preach, but that does not mean that one should not appreciate what is factual correct and what is not. We are all humans and make mistakes, but when corrected one should be grateful.

Hans Kruse

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2014, 06:06:59 pm »

Agree. I love the pictures on his website and might take a workshop with him sometime.
But sometimes his interpretation of DXO graphs overlooks some critical details in the fine print, but hey even the police makes mistakes sometimes  ;)

I'm not so sure about that. See my response. But surely you would be welcome any time on one of my workshops :)

michael

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2014, 06:11:40 pm »

Ok, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. The "police" comment was intended as humour.

I have respect for science, I have respect for facts.

I have greater respect for achieving an image that achieves what I want it to creatively in spite of breaking the rules. The rules and facts need to be understood, then they can be ignored as one wishes.

Michael
 
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Ray

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2014, 08:40:31 pm »

There is no denying that stopping down to apertures as small as F16 and F22 will reduce resolution at the precise point of focus in the image, and this is very easily demonstrated by shooting 2-dimensional scenes such as banknotes pasted to a wall.

However, most scenes we shoot are 3-dimensional. If the scene has great depth, and there are no parts of the composition we wish to de-emphasize by making them blurry, then stopping down can result in a sharper image. The image as a whole can be sharper. This is why I sometimes stop down to F16. I'm obsessed with resolution (to a degree) and find that F16 sometimes produces a sharper image, on balance, considering the whole image.

In other words, the parts of the scene which are furthest away from the precise point of focus, can be very significantly sharper at F16 than they would be at F5.6. In fact, such parts will be sharper at F16 and F22, than at F5.6, to a far greater degree than the precise point of focus would be sharper at F5.6, than it would be at F16 and F22.

Now, if I were even more obsessed with resolution than I already am, I would always try to use the sharpest aperture of my lens and employ focus stacking instead of stopping down. But alas, I'm not that obsessed.  ;)

However, I should add that my own testing with 35mm format at F22 has disappointed. The fall-off in resolution at the point of focus, at F22, compared with F16, seems quite noticeable. Whereas the difference between F11 and F16, at the point of focus, is very slight. I imagine with MF format, F32 would be the equivalent aperture where resolution seems to take a dive.
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bjanes

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2014, 09:56:52 pm »

Erik,

With a due respect, but I believe that you (and many others) overstate the issue of diffraction losses at small apertures, especially with medium format.

As I suspected, f/5.6 and f/8 were indistinguishable. F/11 was minutely less crisp and f/22 a bit more so. f/32 was noticeably softer.

The point though, is that a small increase in the amount of sharpening used is all that's need to bring the f/22 shot to the point that it's almost indistinguishable at 100% on screen, and completely indistinguishable in a 16X20" print.

So, while I have no problem with theory, I am much more interested in practice, and as I've written for years, make your own tests before believe so-called experts (including me).

The secret to making the f/22 shot look almost the same as the one at f/5.6 was simply a bit of extra sharpening. Nothing more.


Michael,

Your test images are shown at a very small scale, and it is impossible to evaluate contrast at high spatial frequencies where even deconvolution sharpening could not recover lost detail. For example, here is my test image of Bart's chart taken at f/4. The central blur diameter is about 104 pixels, which corresponds to a resolution of 90 cy/mm.



And here is the image at f/22. The blur diameter is about 129 pixels, corresponding to a resolution of 73 cy/mm. In addition, there is a large loss of contrast at even the low frequencies. The difference from the f/4 image is quite apparent at even a glance.



After deconvolution sharpening with Focus Magic using a radius of 2 pixels and amount of 150%, macro contrast is greatly improved but there is no change in resolution. The blur diameter is unchanged at 129 pixels. As Bart pointed out in his prior post, at frequencies near Nyquist, there is nothing to recover. Micro contrast is lost. The extent to which this would affect a landscape image would depend on how many fine details are in the image.

.

You could download Bart's chart and repeat the test. The nice thing about Bart's method is that, within limits, the distance from the lens to the chart does not affect the results. The optimal distance is 25-50 times the focal length of the lens.

Bill

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Hans Kruse

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2014, 03:25:41 am »

Ok, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. The "police" comment was intended as humour.

I have respect for science, I have respect for facts.

I have greater respect for achieving an image that achieves what I want it to creatively in spite of breaking the rules. The rules and facts need to be understood, then they can be ignored as one wishes.

Michael
 

The humour didn't resonate with me unfortunately. Continous insisting that you are right made that rather difficult.

You respect facts, so which facts that have been discussed in this thread do you agree on?

Manoli

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2014, 03:41:49 am »

The humour didn't resonate with me unfortunately.

[/sigh]
Humour is often an excellent antidote to excessive pernickety fastidiousness.
Michael was being gracious.
You should try it some time.

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laughingbear

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2014, 03:59:37 am »

Have a look at Figure 3 in the excellent article by Rubén Osuna and Efraín García posted on LuLa.

Thanks Bill!
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laughingbear

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2014, 04:14:18 am »

I have greater respect for achieving an image that achieves what I want it to creatively in spite of breaking the rules.

Exactly.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 04:16:09 am by laughingbear »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2014, 05:02:57 am »

Ok, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. The "police" comment was intended as humour.

Hi Michael,

No problem. I do understand your reaction, which even triggered your response to double check what it was that you were seeing different from what physics tells us. One might ask why your example still looks reasonably good?

Well, there are a few things that can help to understand why your images still look acceptable, especially with a bit of increased sharpening.

Physics tells us that for monochromatic green light, say with a wavelength of 555nm, a circular f/22 aperture will have a MTF=0% cut-off frequency at 1/(22 * 0.000555) = 81.9 cycles/mm. The physical (Nyquist) limit for the 5.3 micron sensel pitch of the 645Z sensor is at 1 / (2 * 0.0053) = 94.3 cycles/mm. So at 87% of Nyquist and higher spatial frequencies there will be 0% MTF response, that's what physics dictates. Depending on the chromatic corrections of the lens, red will blur more, and blue will blur less, but the majority of Luminance contribution comes from Green, and Luminance dominates our senses to detect sharpness.

This loss of resolution is of course mostly affecting the details in the focus plane, other detail will already be somewhat blurred, increasingly more as one gets further to the edges of the acceptable DOF zone. It also becomes more destructive for lower contrast micro-detail which vanishes beyond repair. Your high contrast bars and text input will still look relatively unaffected, because most of it is larger than the cut-off frequency (which is helpful for sharpening, but won't restore what is lost).

So Ray is correct in pointing out that 3D subjects appear to suffer less (because they are already blurred), but they do also suffer. And because the highest resolution detail is lost, it kind of blends in with the already blurred OOF detail, at a more comparable (lower) resolution level.

But as Bill showed, when we want to analyze the amount of loss, a better target should be used. Not to negate what we see in real life scenes, but to determine the best trade-off between our artistic DOF requirements, and loss of quality. Nothing wrong with making a trade-off that hurts technical quality, if it improves the overall image, as long as we make it a conscious trade-off. The image and its intended use should dictate our choices.

As I said before, for the 645Z, f/16 is about the narrowest aperture you can get away with without compromising technical quality too much. It will have lower resolution (especially low contrast structures with micro-detail) than at the lens' optimum resolution aperture, but in the balance of things there is an acceptable loss when it improves the image creatively. Hopefully the viewfinder/live view will allow you to judge that correctly, and I assume the camera offers a stopped down preview option.

Starting at f/18, you will start destroying detail (in the plane of best focus) beyond recovery, so this is where the better creative DOF must outweigh the technical loss of resolution/realism. Again, if the situation provides a creatively better image, by all means go for it, but do realize that it won't enlarge as crisp as wider aperture shots, and it will need a lot more advanced post-processing help to (realistically) fake that impression of sharpness.

Quote
I have respect for science, I have respect for facts.

I have greater respect for achieving an image that achieves what I want it to creatively in spite of breaking the rules. The rules and facts need to be understood, then they can be ignored as one wishes.

Agreed, although 'ignored' is a bit strong. Understanding the trade-offs as dictated by science helps us to make better informed judgement calls, especially if we have some wiggle room (maybe f/18 with better technical quality is also acceptable instead of f/22). Sometimes we need to accept lower resolution, if the image (DOF) dictates it (which assumes an informed technical vs creative trade-off).

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. The 81.9 cycles/mm at f/22, also roughly suggests a potential maximum enlargement factor of 16x if we want to achieve a 5 lp/mm printed resolution, thus the 43.8 x 32.8 mm sensor would produce 717 x 537mm (28 x 21 inch) output with the required resolution for uncompromised close inspection, while f/18 would allow 15% larger output with the same resolution in the plane of best focus.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 06:08:47 am by BartvanderWolf »
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ndevlin

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2014, 08:20:22 am »


What this entire conversation appears to miss, is that the reason we are stopping down is not to push our little photons through tiny, tight little holes, but because the subject of the photograph will otherwise not be in focus.

If key components of the subject are not sharp, the photograph is often pointless in landscape work. The selection of aperture is not a function of anything other than a desire to actually create the desired image.  What resolution is obtained is a consequence of that choice, and irrelevant if the image is not satisfactorily captured at all.

- N.
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