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Author Topic: all about nd filters  (Read 4089 times)

beebibi

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all about nd filters
« on: September 01, 2014, 06:30:05 pm »

What kind do you use and why? Any suggestions and recommendations as to ease of use and quality.

Thanks

Best, Bee :)
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melchiorpavone

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2014, 09:25:42 pm »

What kind do you use and why? Any suggestions and recommendations as to ease of use and quality.

Thanks

Best, Bee :)

They come in different densities. Don't buy cheap ones, as they have color casts. That's all there is to know.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 09:57:06 am by melchiorpavone »
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PhotoEcosse

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2014, 06:28:42 am »

They come in different densities. Don't buy cheap ones, as they have color casts. That's all there is to know.

Well, I was at a seminar on Saturday by renowned landscape photographer Jeremy Walker, who is sponsored by Lee Filters.

He was quite open about colour casts in Lee filters - and gave advice for reducing them - e.g. setting WB to 10,000 when using the Big Stopper.

Different manufacturers' ND filters do have different colour casts and, oddly, some of my "Chinese Cheapies" have less cast than my ultra-expensive Lee ones. But I don't worry too much (and don't use anything other than Auto WB on the camera when shooting landscapes) as I can correct the cast very easily in Lightroom.
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Some Guy

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2014, 07:18:59 am »

I have a B+W 10 stop ND and a Lee "Big Stopper."

The B+W is a circular and results in a warmer (reddish) image.  The Lee results in a much cooler image.

Lee also reports their tolerance is +/- 2/3 stop from 10 stops.  Mine turns out to be about 10.5 in the real world.  The metering system in my camera will underexpose about 1 stop if I do not compensate manually.  The B+W is closer to 11 stops too.  B+W also mentions using some additional filter they sell to subtract the warmness too.

The autofocus isn't happy about the dim light either so I have to go manual which means taking the filter on and off as well as the hood with the B+W.  That on-and-off of the filter and hood and the threading part is a big pain with the circular types over the Lee that you pull the brass release button and it swings off a couple of lips.

The Lee I have has the compendium bellows mounted on the front which is nice to have and I think Lee is the only one that has a hood short of an expensive Matte-Box hinged types as used in cinema.  The hood pretty much stays in whatever shape you pull it out into.  Sort of neat actually.  However, you cannot put on things like thinner or thicker filter rails or springs that Lee also makes for their less expensive "hoodless" unit.  You need to be careful as some of the cheaper units off eBay have different thicknesses of the rails and retaining springs where it could make getting a different thickness filter a problem.  Filters can be super thin like a gel, or a pretty thick plastic with some and Lee has rails to fit most anything.

The B+W offers compactness, and the Lee has a fairly big case (6"x6"x2") plus the "Altoids-like" tin can that either the Big Stopper or Little Stopper comes in.  However, you have a whole lot of options with the Lee slip-in system for things like gradual density filters that you don't have with the circular design.  Others make slip-in filters for it too like some Tiffen cinema slip-ins (Glimmergloss, Smoque, Black Net, Soft Focus, etc.) and some Tiffen HT filters are quite pricey (2x-3x that of B+W too.).

I'd also get the recessed "Wide Angle" adapter plate if you go with the Lee as it pulls the filter holder closer to the lens.  It has a reverse lip on the filter thread that wraps back around the lens barrel and pulls it back a bit.  With some gradual NDs, being out a bit further can leave the tell-tale mark of the gradual so getting them closer is better.

There is also a 16 stop ND out now too that claims to be color-neutral, but I don't have one in my stash.  I doubt it is truly neutral since Lee and B+W both seem to have issues with being neutral and are very different in their output color.  But the Lee combo "Big" & "Little" works out 16 stops too, maybe even 17 stops since mine are darker than 10, and can get you minutes worth of exposure.

SG
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Adam L

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2014, 07:29:25 am »

I was looking at adding filters to my system too.  I have a newbie question.   Will the Lee system attach to a UV filter that sits in front of the lens or will this need to be removed?   I keep the UV in place all the time mostly as protection and am hesitant to remove it.

Are filters widely used in today's modern cameras or has the dynamic range increased to a point where most all can be fixed in PS?   I was looking at the Seven5 kit but am hesitant to plunk down $650 for a full kit when I might find myself only using the big and little stopper to smooth water texture.
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Tony Jay

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2014, 07:41:26 am »

I was looking at adding filters to my system too.  I have a newbie question.   Will the Lee system attach to a UV filter that sits in front of the lens or will this need to be removed?   I keep the UV in place all the time mostly as protection and am hesitant to remove it.

Are filters widely used in today's modern cameras or has the dynamic range increased to a point where most all can be fixed in PS?   I was looking at the Seven5 kit but am hesitant to plunk down $650 for a full kit when I might find myself only using the big and little stopper to smooth water texture.
One of these days we may have a camera sensor that really can capture the full dynamic range presented by some outdoor scenes but that day, although sensors seem to be advancing rapidly in technology, is not now.

Whether you will use your ND's enough to justify their cost only you will know.
I confess that I do not use my ND's nearly as much as I used to apart from uses such as slowing down exposures for certain water shots.

Tony Jay
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torger

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2014, 08:25:18 am »

A pure full ND just allows you to slow down your shutter speed. As dynamic range improvements has come in lower noise rather than higher full well capacity there's no difference here, to slow down your water you still need NDs.

Then you have graduated NDs which are used to darken the sky so you can expose the foreground brighter. Here increased dynamic range has been helpful, as you can underexpose the foreground more than before. You'd have to use Sony's sensors (which Nikon too uses) to get any significant difference, a Canon still don't have that good DR. Of course, you can also use HDR techniques, ie shoot one bright and one dark exposure and merge in post.

I have myself a Lee Seven system to my medium format tech cam (a Linhof Techno), I use it for grads only. I have a 3 stop ND and a polarizer too but as a normal 72mm filter (you can attach the Lee Seven in front). I use a special technique where I apply the grad when I shoot (to capture good overall exposure of the scene), and then make a LCC shot with the grad on and cancel out it in post, and apply new tonemapping in post (which actually often becomes just a grad, grads are still good to get a natural look). In really difficult situations I resort to bracketing and do HDR merge, but surprisingly often a grad is good enough and I do prefer the "one shot capture" when possible. Even if the horizon is uneven or a tree shoots up over the horizon those elements often doesn't suffer too much from being darkened, especially if you choose to have a grad effect in the finished picture.

Still it should be said than grads are not so popular these days, most are satisfied with the possibilities provided with increased DR in the sensor and/or HDR merging techniques. It's somewhat a matter of taste, I find it quite enjoyable to use grads when shooting.

With pure NDs you can find high quality glass filters which are multi-coated to minimize reflections. Get those.

With graduated NDs there's bad news. As far as I know there are no multi-coated filters. There are glass filters primarily made for the movie industry (Schneider has a series sometimes used for landscape) but they are very large heavy and expensive, and still not coated. Lee filters are resin filters but of high quality, uncoated as everyone else. Low quality resin filters can actually blur the image somewhat (been there, done that), so I recommend to get Lee or any other of equal quality if you get graduated NDs.

The lack of multi-coating makes the graduated filters a bit more reflection-prone than they otherwise would be. Reflections occur easier if the incoming light comes at a low angle, ie if you shoot wide angle, and it occurs more easily if you have stacked filters (such as UV + grad) or if you have dust or grease on the filters, or the filters are not properly shaded. In really sharp light, say midday light with bright high contrast features in a building or so you almost certainly will get reflection issues, so in those light conditions graduated filters are not really usable, then use HDR-merging or wait for a better light condition. In a regular sunset and sunrise with clean filters it will work fine.

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Some Guy

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2014, 08:32:12 am »

I was looking at adding filters to my system too.  I have a newbie question.   Will the Lee system attach to a UV filter that sits in front of the lens or will this need to be removed?   I keep the UV in place all the time mostly as protection and am hesitant to remove it.
...

As long as the front filter threads match the Lee adapter threads they will link together.  Problem stacking filters will become one of vignetting, possible flare, image degradation, and bounce-back ghosting (Which I got once and cost me $2K to re-shoot the series too and why I loath having any "protective" filter on the lens at all!  Sun can get to that glass around a hood as it sits ahead of the front element and then it's a nightmare if flare gets into the mix.).  I treat the lens as a tool, not jewelry, and it will eventually get banged up somehow.  Never had a scratch in decades, but some drops have been far more destructive.

Though I do not use a protective or UV filter, if I were to I'd go with a "Marumi Exus Lens Protect" that has a Teflon coating for the screw threads (that often jam), low reflection (<0.3%), very thin, easy-clean surface, anti-static coating, and some light blocking ridges on the outer trim-ring edge.  Seems they thought it through better than the others.

Actually, some doc in the local club thought UV was a good thing for lenses to keep fungus from forming.  He was thinking of making a lens cap with a UV LED or lamp to help thwart its growth.  Don't know if he ever did it though.  I got that stuff in an old film body once that attacked the prism and it looked like black spiderwebs on it.  Old Pentax Takumar lens had its coating attacked too.
 
SG
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Paul2660

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2014, 09:00:02 am »

As others have reported, the Lee system will work on any circular filter other than a CLPL.  If you put a Lee wide angle adapter ring on in front of a CLPL, you may never get it off, since the CLPL will rotate and not allow the Lee ring to come off. 

I personally have long ago quit using UV filters, as I don't see any benefit, unless you are looking for a protective layer in front of your lens. 

The use of ND's for me is simply to allow a slower shutter speed mainly for water, and in these shots I also will try to have a CLPL on as it will cut off the glare from the light on rocks, and also on the surface of the water, allowing most time for a much more pleasing subject. 

If I want a 5 second exposure at iso 50, in good outdoor light, most times, I will shoot with a ND 0.9 (3 stops of reduction in light) and CLPL which gives between 1.5 to 2 stops.  This combined with F8 to F11 aperture will give me the shutter speed I am looking for without blowing the light on the water. 

You can easily test a ND for color cast by holding it up to a pure white plastic, like ones used for LCC captures.  Many times you will see a slight blue cast (OK for me) or a reddish cast  (not OK for me as it's very hard to correct).  This cast will get worse the longer the exposure. 

Lee resin ND both solid and grad are pretty clean of color casts from what I can tell, and if you see any, it tend to be on the side. 

I tend to use the Lee wide angle hood, with a 105mm CLPL installed and one filter 2mm slot for an ND. 

Interesting comments from PhotoEcosse on Lee's comments on the blue cast issues with the Big stopper as it's definitely got one.

One other note, as you get towards 20 second exposures, maybe even 10, you are going to start seeing IR pollution unless your ND has a IR cut built in.  You can find this in the more expensive Tiffin and Schneider filters among others. 

Paul

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Paul Caldwell
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melchiorpavone

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2014, 09:58:08 am »

Well, I was at a seminar on Saturday by renowned landscape photographer Jeremy Walker, who is sponsored by Lee Filters.

He was quite open about colour casts in Lee filters - and gave advice for reducing them - e.g. setting WB to 10,000 when using the Big Stopper.

Different manufacturers' ND filters do have different colour casts and, oddly, some of my "Chinese Cheapies" have less cast than my ultra-expensive Lee ones. But I don't worry too much (and don't use anything other than Auto WB on the camera when shooting landscapes) as I can correct the cast very easily in Lightroom.

I would say use the B+W brand. German stuff.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2014, 10:44:16 am »

I would say use the B+W brand. German stuff.

From user comments, I'd say don't use the B+W 3.0 ND (other filters usually pose no problem) because it produces an almost impossible to correct red cast. This is presumably also due to it's IR transmission characteristics, so the effect may differ between camera models (which use different strength IR filters). A relatively cheap Haida Pro II coated filter has characteristics that are similar to the Lee Bigstopper, and both allow to correct for the color balance quite well.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 12:46:42 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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Ligament

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2014, 12:09:34 pm »

"I tend to use the Lee wide angle hood, with a 105mm CLPL installed and one filter 2mm slot for an ND."

I do the same.

I have a Lee Big Stopper (10 stop), and indeed it has a STRONG blue cast.

I have the Singh-ray 15 stop mor-slo ND, and the cast is a slight warming, not blue. And only slight at that.

I've considered replacing the LEE with a sing-ray 10 stop.

The sing-ray 100mmx100mm filters are almost 3x the price of the Lee filters.

Does anybody know why the singh-ray filters are so much more expensive than the made-in-england by hand Lee filters? I can't imagine its labor costs alone.


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Pope

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2014, 01:38:41 pm »

I use a Cokin 3 stops ND filter and a Lee Big Stopper... I read somewhere that if you shoot with it and adjust your WB for 10000K, you should get an image with less blue cast.
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beebibi

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...fantastic response -
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2014, 02:02:05 pm »

It's refreshing to see how willing you all are to take the time and share so freely your considerable knowledge on this topic - there is much more to learn than I thought.

I never bothered to get a ND filter for my 1Ds MkII - I mainly use manual and always raw and there are many ways in PS to get by without one. (Didn't do any smooth waters up till now)

But now I will add a panosonic lumix fz1000 to complement the canon camera I think I will need it because of the limitations with depth of field in these compact cameras with fixed zooms.

Again, I appreciate your inputs and will take note :)

Best, Bee
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Alan Smallbone

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2014, 02:09:38 pm »


Does anybody know why the singh-ray filters are so much more expensive than the made-in-england by hand Lee filters? I can't imagine its labor costs alone.


Because people will pay for it, they have them made by someone else. I was looking at one of their filters and called and asked about a return policy, they said they would not take a return, period, for any reason. That turned me off from buying from them. I have no problem with the LEE and with the screw in B+W filters, also the Formatt-Hitech.

alan
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Alan Smallbone
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Colorado David

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2014, 02:22:07 pm »

I'd like to find someone who is really dissatisfied with the Singh-Ray 15 stop ND who will then sell it to me for pennies on the dollar. ;D

NancyP

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2014, 02:46:59 pm »

Pseudo-ND filter that's always in your bag/pocket: There's also the 2-stop loss you can get with a polarizer, comes in handy even if there isn't any polarized light to eliminate.
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rgs

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2014, 06:01:13 pm »

I carry a CPL (Marumi), a 3 stop ND (Marumi) and an 8 stop ND (Formatt). They are all three in 77mm and I use step rings for smaller diameters. This kit is very small and light and it all fits in small pouch on my belt. The Marumis are great and I am very pleased with them. The Formatt is off color and a bit soft. I have e-mailed Formatt about it several times but they won't even respond to the e-mail. It will be replaced with a better one soon - probably B+W. I am through with Formatt - not because of the filter but because of their unwillingness to even respond.

As to ND grads, I use LR and an occasional blend with LR Enfuse or by hand. If I ETR and watch the histogram carefully, I find very little need for a grad and the LR tools are much more effective. ND grads are a really blunt tool.

People will say that using step rings prevents using a hood but there are other ways to shade a lens. My hand, a cap, a generic rubber lens hood, a compendium hood, or a flag can get the job done a lot cheaper than buying $300+ in filters in 4 different sizes.

So I like my little 3 filter kit. It does not get in my way and does everything I need.

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Some Guy

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2014, 08:33:00 pm »

I went outside and played in the sunlight with the Nikon D7000, ColorChecker Passport's White Balance pane, and the "Lee Big Stopper" and the "B+W 10 stop ND filter" for fun.

My normal tuning in Auto White Balance coordinates with the D7000 is A3,0 which gets me within a couple of points of 1.00 in the Red and Blue WB scales in Capture NX 2.  If I just leave it at the default of 0,0 Capture NX 2 will present me with 1.08 and .93 and not close to 1.00.  I'd like to tune it closer, maybe +/- 0.02 of the 1.00 for Nikon's software WB.

With the Lee, I needed to bring the camera's menu WB Auto Tuning coordinates to A6,0 (Or a bit more amber added than the A3,0 above, sans any filter.).  That or set a 9,090 Kelvin in the Manual WB in the menu.

With the B+W, I had to set the Auto Tuning coordinates to A6,G3 (Or a bit greener to get rid of the warm magenta cast).  Or just set the WB in Manual to 4,000 Kelvin.

With the above I am within +/- 0.02 of the Perfect=1.00 for the Red & Blue scales in Capture NX 2.

SG
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 07:27:05 pm by Some Guy »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: all about nd filters
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2014, 04:09:02 am »

I went outside and played in the sunlight with the Nikon D7000, ColorChecker Passport's White Balance pane, and the "Lee Big Stopper" and the "B+W 10 stop ND filter" for fun.

Hi,

While White-balancing will get us a long way towards a more neutral rendering of close to spectrally neutral colors, it doesn't guarantee that other colors are also 'correct'. The contribution of excess IR (that the built-in IR filter cannot cope with) will contaminate all colors, because the Bayer CFA filter dyes are transparent to IR.

Depending on the colors in the scene, that may result in (at best) a muddy/brownish overall cast, but it may also turn into a color cast that is very difficult to remove in post-processing (even when neutral colors are rendered as neutral).

Cheers,
Bart
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