The Mirrorless Revolution

[Hans Kruse]

Hi,

I have been with Hans in the Dolomites and I have seen all possible cameras and I guess that we all came home with great pictures…

Best regards
Erik

Thanks very much Erik and I would say that still the guy behind the camera counts 10x+ the camera

[Hans Kruse]

There is I'd say also been a good deal of warping of history going on here. The reality is IMHO that the push towards mirrorless was mostly the product of Canon and Nikon coming out ontop in the move for the DSLR market. Everyone else either needed to look elsewhere for significant market share or fall going to the wall(or becoming a niche player).

Sony and Panasonic especially to me give the impression of companies who look a bit desperate knowing that there camera divisions could be facing the ax if they don't increase profits quickly. I wouldn't be supprized if the FE system is Sony's camera division last roll of the dice.

Unfortunately very much my view and interpretation of the market situation. But hopefully there is more to the story, we will see

[Hans Kruse]

Ooh, Dolomites! Keep meaning to go there and do some bike riding and admire the scenery

Absolutely you should and don't forget to bring your best camera and get off the bike

[Telecaster]

The reality is IMHO that the push towards mirrorless was mostly the product of Canon and Nikon coming out on top in the move for the DSLR market. Everyone else either needed to look elsewhere for significant market share or fall going to the wall (or becoming a niche player).

I think there's much truth in this. Innovation is often driven by the simple need to stay alive. But it's not the whole truth. The move towards EVFs would be happening regardless, though probably not at the same pace. The benefits are obvious to anyone who uses them without preconceptions of the "optical VF experience" being superior. (Sports & BIF photogs excepted…for now anyway.) The benefits are also obvious to the various camera makers in terms of reduced mechanical complexity & manufacturing costs. I imagine CaNikon will be using EVFs in lower-end SLR-like cameras before too long*. How fast they migrate upwards in the product line will depend on how well they're received by lower-end buyers…and how much of a ruckus is raised by the Reflex Forever! folks.   

-Dave-

*Another possibility, though, is that the mirrorless market may in the short term discourage CaNikon from using EVFs in EF & F mount cameras, despite the benefits, in order to better differentiate themselves from that market.

[MoreOrLess]

I think there's much truth in this. Innovation is often driven by the simple need to stay alive. But it's not the whole truth. The move towards EVFs would be happening regardless, though probably not at the same pace. The benefits are obvious to anyone who uses them without preconceptions of the "optical VF experience" being superior. (Sports & BIF photogs excepted…for now anyway.) The benefits are also obvious to the various camera makers in terms of reduced mechanical complexity & manufacturing costs. I imagine CaNikon will be using EVFs in lower-end SLR-like cameras before too long*. How fast they migrate upwards in the product line will depend on how well they're received by lower-end buyers…and how much of a ruckus is raised by the Reflex Forever! folks.  

-Dave-

*Another possibility, though, is that the mirrorless market may in the short term discourage CaNikon from using EVFs in EF & F mount cameras, despite the benefits, in order to better differentiate themselves from that market.

I'd agree but it does paint a very different picture of the market to that many seem to have and whilst history shows some companies succeed in this fashion many more fail and lets be honest mirrorless is currently failing in terms of profits, or rather the lack of them.

My guess is that if Canon or Nikon introduce an EVF in there DSLR mounts in the short term it'll either be replacing an OVF entirely on a very small body(probably APSC) or it'll be some kind of EVF/OVF hybrid on a higher end body designed to give the best of both, I could see Canon putting something like this into the 5D4 for example to help push its video functionality.

[Guillermo Luijk]

The EVF's I have seen don't compete at all with the viewfinders on my 1Ds III, 5D III and D800E/D810. I want a bright, clear and uncluttered view finder and I do not want to look at real time histograms, zebras etc. I want to compose my images!

Hans your argument is permanent from people who are used to OVF, but such generation will vanish soon. Today's young people started taking pictures with a digital compact camera or mobile, and they will complain much more at having to use the rudimentary DLSR exposure meter than at not having such a bright OVF they never used (BTW my EVF is far more bright than any OVF in low light conditions). In technological terms you are a dinosaur.

An OVF helps you compose, an EVF helps you compose AND expose images. Guess who wins.

[barryfitzgerald]

Hans your argument is permanent from people who are used to OVF, but such generation will vanish soon. Today's young people started taking pictures with a digital compact camera or mobile, and they will complain much more at having to use the rudimentary DLSR exposure meter than at not having such a bright OVF they never used (BTW my EVF is far more bright than any OVF in low light conditions). In technological terms you are a dinosaur.

An OVF helps you compose, an EVF helps you compose AND expose images. Guess who wins.

Not quite that simple
EVF's are quite good in low light to a point (in very low light they can lag), but they are dimmer in normal light
DR wise they do have issues with harsh lighting and they vary a lot from maker to maker, Sony tend to go for speed of display at the expense of some clarity and detail the Fuji and Panasonic EVF's I've used look quite different.

Having an exposure preview is useful (except for flash where it's of no use), though I never had much problem with an OVF once you know how the metering works it's not usually a problem (the D7000 was as it had a wonky meter) It's never a case of black and white and for every EVF advantage there is a disadvantage too. I can use them but it's hard to beat a good pentaprism VF for detail and clarity

[Hans Kruse]

Hans your argument is permanent from people who are used to OVF, but such generation will vanish soon. Today's young people started taking pictures with a digital compact camera or mobile, and they will complain much more at having to use the rudimentary DLSR exposure meter than at not having such a bright OVF they never used (BTW my EVF is far more bright than any OVF in low light conditions). In technological terms you are a dinosaur.

An OVF helps you compose, an EVF helps you compose AND expose images. Guess who wins.

Sure, I'm a dinosaur, I'm just waiting for the next meteor I don't think my opinion works for everybody. I'm sure as I have said previously that EVF's will advance to a point that even I will prefer them when the rest of the system works as well as the current DSLR's. I'm not trying to convince those who prefer EVF's. For exposure I would much prefer a lightmeter that can expose to my wishes rather than look at histograms in the view finder.

[Alan Goldhammer]

I'm old enough to be a dinosaur!  For my outdoor stuff I pretty much use a tripod so camera stability is assured.  One thing I've found with my little Canon S90 is that I don't get the additional support of having the camera braced against my face as I would with a DSLR and as a result my images are not as sharp as they would normally be (of course this is mostly for walking around so it's not as critical).  Some of the mirrorless cameras have a view finder (one forum member talked to me via email about his experience with the Sony a6000) so maybe this would work for me in terms of adding stability during the image capture.  However, my colleague also noted that battery life with the a6000 "sucked"   When my wife and I travel abroad I take my Nikon D300 with the 16-85 zoom and a 24mm prime lens (primarily for walking around street shooting).  It's worked well and not all that heavy.

I'm caught betwixt and between in terms of making an additional investment in a new mirrorless camera either as an additional setup or a replacement, particularly as I have a lot of Nikon lenses (including legacies from the film days) that work well.