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Author Topic: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic  (Read 124379 times)

Schewe

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #240 on: August 25, 2014, 01:42:39 pm »

I still haven't heard anybody going on record saying that the AdobeRGB is going to win.  Just a bunch of snipes off topic.

Well, shooting a target that is not out of gamut for sRGB (except cyan) is a useless test...however, if you did real life shooting of natural life subjects that are out of gamut in both sRGB and Adobe RGB, then you would have an interesting test that would prove that ARGB can contain more color than sRGB and the prints would prove that. (I know, I've done this).

So, all you are really doing is waisting your time...but hey, it's yours to waist.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #241 on: August 25, 2014, 01:42:46 pm »

His audience does not shoot raw, so he is doing the test that mimics a real-world scenario for his audience. And you did not answer my question, btw.
Doesn't matter! His audience only needs to see two properly handled images in two color spaces. The capture mode doesn't have to even enter the discussion!
The reason to shot raw is many! First, with one capture it would be far easier to inspect the individual pixels in perfect registration for further analysis, something Gary clearly couldn’t do both others could. Next, the conversion from native raw which as I hope you know is going to happen anyway, to sRGB and Adobe RGB (1998) could be a factor from each camera maker. If you remove the proprietary in-camera process, which we don't know about, this becomes camera agnostic (it does become raw converter specific). Less variables. If we start with raw, we can use other working space too, which would be useful.

What question didn't I answer?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #242 on: August 25, 2014, 01:45:21 pm »

... What question didn't I answer?

"...wouldn't the prints that were shot with AdobeRGB, yet printed as if sRGB look washed out overall, across all/most colors in the color checker?"

Czornyj

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #243 on: August 25, 2014, 01:55:57 pm »

"...wouldn't the prints that were shot with AdobeRGB, yet printed as if sRGB look washed out overall, across all/most colors in the color checker?"

Sure - most mini lab controllers are not ICC aware, they simply make device link sRGB to paper emulsion RGB colour conversions. Assign (or soft proof with "preserve RGB numbers") c-print profile to an sRGB and Adobe RGB content and you'll see the potential effect simulation.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 01:57:30 pm by Czornyj »
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #244 on: August 25, 2014, 02:13:49 pm »

"...wouldn't the prints that were shot with AdobeRGB, yet printed as if sRGB look washed out overall, across all/most colors in the color checker?"
There are so many ways Gary can sabotage or handle the data incorrectly, anything is possible. And again, you don't print as sRGB. You could assign sRGB to Adobe RGB (1998) data which would be an incredulity dumb thing to do and yes, the data then converted to the output space would be wrong.

Just go into Photoshop and Assign the wrong profile to any document and see the results. The numbers don't change, the meaning does. Leave the incorrect meaning and then convert to the output color space, the output would be wrong. Again, you'd have to go out of your way to do this and it's an incorrect way to handle the data. If you had a document sized for a particular output size and resolution, then resized down using the wrong algorithm 500% and printed it, it would look pretty ratty too. Don't handle the data incorrectly! And if you do, don't blame it on a color space or a resize algorithm! It's your own fault.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #245 on: August 25, 2014, 02:16:24 pm »

Sure - most mini lab controllers are not ICC aware, they simply make device link sRGB to paper emulsion RGB colour conversions...

Than Garry's test is not totally pointless. It will show, to his audience, what happens when they set their camera to Adobe RGB and then send the file directly out of camera to a print lab.

digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #246 on: August 25, 2014, 02:29:46 pm »

Than Garry's test is not totally pointless. It will show, to his audience, what happens when they set their camera to Adobe RGB and then send the file directly out of camera to a print lab.
Yes it is totally pointless (and why you'd think otherwise is kind of surprising). All one has to do is open the file in Photoshop and Assign the wrong profile to show this. And no, many labs will get it right when sending Adobe RGB to the lab. Or just show the audience how to convert from Adobe RGB to sRGB. Better to show them the correct way to handle the data than the wrong way.
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Eyeball

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #247 on: August 25, 2014, 02:30:26 pm »

Than Garry's test is not totally pointless. It will show, to his audience, what happens when they set their camera to Adobe RGB and then send the file directly out of camera to a print lab.

Gary has already shown that in the stupid video!!!!!  No print test is necessary!
Who here is even debating that if you send an image in AdobeRGB to a print lab that will assume sRGB, that the results will be dull and crappy????
I'm certainly not.

The problem is that the video gives the viewer the impression that this "dullness" is due to some crazy "muffin-top"/jamming/squeeze theory that will happen any time you go from a large-gamut image to a small-gamut device.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #248 on: August 25, 2014, 02:32:29 pm »

The problem is that the video gives the viewer the impression that this "dullness" is due to some crazy "muffin-top"/jamming/squeeze theory that will happen any time you go from a large-gamut image to a small-gamut device.
Exactly. That again is the root and crux of this discussion.
As to why Slobodan is going down Gary's rabbit hole with the video is surprising however.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #249 on: August 25, 2014, 02:36:40 pm »

...And no, many labs will get it right when sending Adobe RGB to the lab...

A suggestion to Gary then: send the test prints to, say, ten most popular labs (e.g., Costco, Target, Walgreens, etc. and include some like Shutterfly, Mpix, etc, in the mix) and see how many of them will get it right.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 06:58:21 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #250 on: August 25, 2014, 02:49:19 pm »

A suggestion to Garry then: send the test prints to, say, ten most popular labs (e.g., Costco, Target, Walgreens, etc. and include some like Shutterfly, Mpix, etc, in the mix) and see how many of them will get it right.
Gary isn't interested in that, nor any other suggestions (rational or otherwise) made here about the video. He's got a predetermined result he expects and wants to present. The paper trail leading up to suggestions he dismissed can be found below.

Quote
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2014, 12:51:15 AM »
He gave me quite the education of Andrew Rodney, and we will be doing a Skype video to clear up the confusion stirred up by Mr. Rodney (and others) for a YouTube video.

« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2014, 07:52:22 AM »
I will be making a series of videos that we plan to roll out to especially educate on this topic.  I'll be doing Skype interviews for my YouTube channel about where all of the confusion is coming from, and I'll be making sample prints in both sRGB and AdobeRGB workflows, and we will put them on display on the sidewalk outside my office, and let people vote which is better.

What do you think will be the result of my public opinion test when I show passersby unmarked prints of images taken both in contained sRGB or aRGB workflows?  I'll put up a tally of who voted for which.  Do you think the result will be enormously in favor of the AdobeRGB workflow print, or the sRGB workflow print?

« Reply #92 on: August 24, 2014, 12:44:45 PM »
Tell me in advance what is bad about the workflow I'm going to use, so I can consider it for the video.

I'm not sure why you don't see this is just more misdirection from the errors he's presented already, or think he'll take your suggestions any more to heart than those already presented, unless he feels you are siding with him. It's pretty unanimously accepted here that his message had merit, the way it was presented was hugely flawed. You think the next video will be any different based on what Gary has admitted to us already?
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Eyeball

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #251 on: August 25, 2014, 02:52:37 pm »

This is just kind of a side-topic since I think this is just a viral-marketing gimmick where Gary is concerned.

When my Canon 5D2 is set to AdobeRGB and is doing in-camera Jpegs, the AdobeRGB profile is not embedded into the image.  Only an Exif flag is set.  I wonder how many printing systems and browsers that normally DO read and interpret correctly embedded ICC profiles would actually ignore AdobeRGB if it was flagged only within the EXIF.

Just curious - you know, among us color nerds and measurebaters.
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Eyeball

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #252 on: August 25, 2014, 03:11:04 pm »

Just to answer part of my own question.  I just did a quick test on an in-camera Jpeg with AdobeRGB (Canon 5d2).  Results:
- Firefox with color management fully enabled does NOT correctly convert the color space.  It shows up with the trademark Gary Fong Dullness.
- Photoshop DOES detect and properly convert for AdobeRGB.

The results are what I was expecting.  I would have been very surprised if Firefox would do the conversion correctly since I am pretty sure that its color management depends on an embedded profile.  Lacking that, it will assume sRGB (or not convert at all, depending on the FF color management mode).
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #253 on: August 25, 2014, 03:14:14 pm »

- Photoshop DOES detect and properly convert for AdobeRGB.
For fun, if you go into the Photoshop preferences and File Handling, I assume you have "Ignore EXIF Profile Tag" checkbox OFF.
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Eyeball

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #254 on: August 25, 2014, 03:27:32 pm »

For fun, if you go into the Photoshop preferences and File Handling, I assume you have "Ignore EXIF Profile Tag" checkbox OFF.

That is correct, fellow color nerd.  :D
Amazing what you can learn when you concentrate on facts and evidence instead of fantasy, isn't it?

Any speculation on how many printing systems out there would properly convert images with embedded profiles but would not when only the Exif flag* was set?

* my Canon manual refers to this as "Design rule for Camera File System 2.0 (Exif 2.21), by the way.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #255 on: August 25, 2014, 03:28:33 pm »

- Firefox with color management fully enabled does NOT correctly convert the color space.  It shows up with the trademark Gary Fong Dullness.
I just used Photoshop's Save for Web, told it not to embed profile. Safari seems to be working fine. When I try opening it in Photoshop, I get the dreaded Missing Profile dialog.

But this really very simple. If you know you need to upload to the web or send data to a lab that demands sRGB, just send them sRGB which can easily be done in Photoshop, Elements, Lightroom and a slew of other applications that understand color. You get the best of both worlds; wider gamut Adobe RGB (1998) and an iteration, presumably sized and prep'ed for output in sRGB. To send Adobe RGB (1998) out to anyone or anywhere that assumes sRGB (or for that matter vise versa) is user error. Teach user not to make the error, simple.
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aaronchan

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #256 on: August 25, 2014, 03:30:15 pm »

A suggestion to Garry then: send the test prints to, say, ten most popular labs (e.g., Costco, Target, Walgreens, etc. and include some like Shutterfly, Mpix, etc, in the mix) and see how many of them will get it right.

I think this would be a more reasonable test.
The thing is there is only one true concept, the basic fundamental logic, of color management and that should be it.
But to see "IF" the general public service providers are using it as their way to manage their workflow, that's another story.
"IF" they do, that's great for all of us. "IF" they don't, doesn't mean "THEY ARE DOING IT IN A CORRECT WAY". By all means that they are all doing wrong but the general public has to accepted it in a sad way.

digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #257 on: August 25, 2014, 03:30:59 pm »

Any speculation on how many printing systems out there would properly convert images with embedded profiles but would not when only the Exif flag* was set?
Don't know, but a poster here says none:
https://forums.adobe.com/thread/835020
And again, while that would be nice, just convert to sRGB if you know the color space has to be sRGB (I know, that's obvious and directed at Gary or his newer users).
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #258 on: August 25, 2014, 03:36:50 pm »

Hold on, this is interesting:

http://www.cipa.jp/exifprint/contents_e/01exif2_2_e.html
Quote
In addition to the sRGB color space used in DCF Ver. 1.0 standard, the newly-established DCF Ver. 2.0 (established September 2003) allows the use of Adobe RGB, a standard used in commercial sectors such as the printing and publishing industry. DCF Ver. 2.0 defines Adobe RGB as an optional color space. In order to differentiate JPEG files recorded using this color space from those recorded using conventional sRGB, new rules for operation have been incorporated, such as adding an underline in front of the file name. This enables Exif information to indicate that a JPEG image was recorded in Adobe RGB color space when recorded in Adobe RGB mode. Clearly differentiating Adobe RGB from sRGB allows correct reproduction of the color space used to capture the image.
http://www.cipa.jp/exifprint/contents_e/01exif3_1_e.html
Quote
Exif Print is the promotion name given to Exif 2.2, which is a new standard for improved coordination between digital cameras and printers. It allows images to be printed easily and beautifully.
http://www.cipa.jp/exifprint/contents_e/02support4_e.html

http://www.cipa.jp/exifprint/contents_e/02support5_e.html
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 03:38:21 pm by digitaldog »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #259 on: August 25, 2014, 03:46:44 pm »

Hold on, this is interesting:

Quote
<snip>In order to differentiate JPEG files recorded using this color space from those recorded using conventional sRGB, new rules for operation have been incorporated, such as adding an underline in front of the file name. <snip>


So that's where that underscore comes from! Now why does it appear in Nikon raw file names?

Jim
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