Talk me into or out of the 45mm PC-e

[trevarthan]

Give up on those lenses, or learn how to use them. Go home?, No.

FWIW... I have spent my whole career, starting in 1970 using large format view cameras. Countless hours in back breaking positions tweaking an 8X10 to achieve perfect focus. Close to 40 years of doing this.
posts like yours come off as smart a**  and uncaring to the profession I spent my career in. I give a dam about using proper terminology. About LEARNING how to use equipment and not be so flippant about the trade.
I don't know you from Adam but I feel you are missing out on getting better with your craft. For me, it's not about who buys my work. It's about pride in craftsmanship. The will to find out how to do a job right, even if you can "get away" with less. In the end it's not about selling, it's about learning and growing in a craft you have chosen.
I wish you the best

What do you shoot now? Camera and lens. I'm just curious.

I'm 32. I'll probably always come off as a smart ass to you. Too much of an age difference. Presuming I'm not interested in learning how to excel with the equipment I own would be a mistake. That's not how I operate. However, don't presume I agree with your own internal standards of quality either. I might come around to your way of thinking eventually, but I reserve the right to think for myself. If there is a rule book for this stuff, I haven't seen it. It's all good, better, best, and the judge is the viewer.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... I'll probably always come off as a smart ass to you. Too much of an age difference....

Apparently, we ("us lot") are not young enough to know everything, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde 

[trevarthan]

Apparently, we ("us lot") are not young enough to know everything, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde 

Nobody knows everything.

[Walt Roycraft]

What do you shoot now? Camera and lens. I'm just curious.

I'm 32. I'll probably always come off as a smart ass to you. Too much of an age difference. Presuming I'm not interested in learning how to excel with the equipment I own would be a mistake. That's not how I operate. However, don't presume I agree with your own internal standards of quality either. I might come around to your way of thinking eventually, but I reserve the right to think for myself. If there is a rule book for this stuff, I haven't seen it. It's all good, better, best, and the judge is the viewer.

I shoot a Nikon D810, 700 before that. I use a 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200 2.8 glass. I wish I could afford to go the TS lenses (for the shift not so much for the tilt) but it is not possible right now. I shoot Architecture and landscapes.

When I was starting out, being an assistant was the route to take. Go to school to learn the basics and then go to work for someone who's work knocks your socks off. I understand the world is much different today and functions at a break neck speed.

Standards are standards. Most of the time the viewer has no clue. I find I need to "educate" the viewer constantly.

Thinking for yourself is good.

If your interested in a rule book, maybe ask Kirk for some help. He is an excellent Architectural photographer and educator. He commented here on this thread. Of course he is very busy.

Again, best to you

[Glenn NK]

In the OP examples, no amount of tilt would result in increased DOF.

I believe you are correct Slobodan.  Tilt will work fine to get the flat walkways into focus (flat planes = plane of focus).

[trevarthan]

I shoot a Nikon D810, 700 before that. I use a 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200 2.8 glass. I wish I could afford to go the TS lenses (for the shift not so much for the tilt) but it is not possible right now. I shoot Architecture and landscapes.

Thanks. Useful info. Why wouldn't you use the tilt?

[Walt Roycraft]

Thanks. Useful info. Why wouldn't you use the tilt?

"Tilt will work fine to get the flat walkways into focus (flat planes = plane of focus)."
When I'm shooting buildings I want the top and bottom in focus, which the tilt function does not supply. So, If I have a tall building in the background and a foreground of importance the if I use the tilt I will have the top of the building and the foreground focused, but the base of the bldg will be out of focus.
With Landscapes, I shoot a lot of scenes with trees close by. To use tilt to get background and foreground in focus, I would lose the base of the tree/trees.
So I rely on Hyperfocal distance and depth of field mostly. On an occasion, manual focus stacking.
There are situations I would love to use the tilt function, but alas, can't afford it right now.

[trevarthan]

"Tilt will work fine to get the flat walkways into focus (flat planes = plane of focus)."
When I'm shooting buildings I want the top and bottom in focus, which the tilt function does not supply. So, If I have a tall building in the background and a foreground of importance the if I use the tilt I will have the top of the building and the foreground focused, but the base of the bldg will be out of focus.
With Landscapes, I shoot a lot of scenes with trees close by. To use tilt to get background and foreground in focus, I would lose the base of the tree/trees.
So I rely on Hyperfocal distance and depth of field mostly. On an occasion, manual focus stacking.
There are situations I would love to use the tilt function, but alas, can't afford it right now.

Also excellent answers. Thank you. If you don't mind my asking, who are your customers for architectural work? Do you sell through a marketplace, or direct?

[kers]

I have got all the three PCE-lenses: the 45mm is a very good lens.

you can use it almost fully shifted the longway (landscape LR) at d8. If you are a purist and use it shifted you have about a 28mm lens.

It has no difficulty in finding the right focus distance ( as the 24mmPCE does) it is just focus and shoot.
the distortion is in between the 24mm and the 85 - the latter has NO distortion.
At d5,6 it is best when not shifted. I like the unsharpness as well.
Ok good luck with your choice...

[Walt Roycraft]

Also excellent answers. Thank you. If you don't mind my asking, who are your customers for architectural work? Do you sell through a marketplace, or direct?

You're welcome.
My customers vary quite a bit. I deal directly with Architects, Interior Designers. Commercial clients that make home/business products, ie flooring roofing lighting etc etc.
I also have a home magazine I shoot for as the exclusive photographer.
When I first started out I shot on speculation and then approached the architect. Surprising;y, I had a bit of success gaining clients doing that.

[trevarthan]

You're welcome.
My customers vary quite a bit. I deal directly with Architects, Interior Designers. Commercial clients that make home/business products, ie flooring roofing lighting etc etc.
I also have a home magazine I shoot for as the exclusive photographer.
When I first started out I shot on speculation and then approached the architect. Surprising;y, I had a bit of success gaining clients doing that.

You're the first professional architectural photographer I've had the pleasure of talking to. Thank you for answering my questions. I've always wondered what equipment you guys used and who you worked with.

We clearly have different clientele (if you can even call it clientele on my end), and I can't help but wonder if the rules you work by matter at all for me. Mostly, stock is used for advertising. I certainly wouldn't ever have referred to myself as an architectural photographer. If anything, I might refer to myself as a travel photographer (once I actually get to the traveling). It wouldn't hurt to know the rules of architectural photography though. Do you have a book you could recommend? I learn well from books.

One important thing I've taken away from this conversation is that you don't use tilt, and most of the others who have chimed in don't use tilt. Tilt seems to be like ND Grads: Kind of a dinosaur.

Also, when I use tilt in a way that causes vertical objects to look unnatural, you guys seem to get all riled up. Again, I'm not sure how much attention I should pay to that, since you're not my customer, but I'm not ignoring it. I'm considering it.

I'll tell you one thing though... I don't really want to lug around more than two lenses and a single body. Lugging my 24mm and my 85mm is fine. I'm going to be a little annoyed lugging a 24, 45, and 85. Probably I'd just leave the 85 at home most days. It must be nice using those pro zooms and having all the focal lengths covered. I have the 70-200mm 2.8 also, but I mostly use it for people. I can see why lugging a 14-25 and a 24-70 would be handy. Lots to think about.

[BernardLanguillier]

Hello Walt,

If you have not tried this yet, DoF stacking may be an interesting tool to add to your shooting tool kit. I have found HeliconFocus 6.0 to be easy to use and deliver great results.

When using the 14-24 f2.8, it would enable you to shoot at a wider aperture, such as f6.3, which would result in much better micro-detail.

Depending on the focal length, 3-5 images focused at the right location would enable you to pretty much secure infinite DoF with great micro-detail.

Regards,
Bernard
 

[Walt Roycraft]

Hello Walt,

If you have not tried this yet, DoF stacking may be an interesting tool to add to your shooting tool kit. I have found HeliconFocus 6.0 to be easy to use and deliver great results.

When using the 14-24 f2.8, it would enable you to shoot at a wider aperture, such as f6.3, which would result in much better micro-detail.

Depending on the focal length, 3-5 images focused at the right location would enable you to pretty much secure infinite DoF with great micro-detail.

Regards,
Bernard
 

Bernard, thanks for the recommendation. Something I've thought about, and have looked into HF briefly. I will look more intently in September when my schedule opens up more.

[trevarthan]

Bernard, thanks for the recommendation. Something I've thought about, and have looked into HF briefly. I will look more intently in September when my schedule opens up more.

Yeah, again, helicon remote doesn't support the d810 yet as Nikon hasn't released the SDK. Otherwise I would have used it to take these shots and not gotten myself into this tilt discussion in the first place.

[trevarthan]

Well, I did some research this evening and decided to hold off on the 45mm PC-E. I also won't be buying a teleconverter. Instead, I'm going to focus on some focus stacking (manually, until that SDK comes out) and see what kind of results I can get under various working conditions.

Ultimately, I might end up buying a 35mm 1.4g instead of the 45 PC-E. I considered the 16-35mm f4, the 17-35mm f2.8, and the 14-24mm f2.8, but I think I'll use a 35 more than the 14-23 range, and I can always buy that later if I decide I need it. When it comes down to it, I just prefer primes, I guess.

Thanks for all the input. This went in a much different direction than I expected, but I think it's the right one.

[MrSmith]

"Mostly, stock is used for advertising."

FYI stock is mostly used small for website banners, brochures, books and a lot of editorial. Any press advertising sales will be a tiny proportion.  Advertisers usually want bespoke unique imagery and often to buy an exclusive stock image costs more than commissioning.

Technically a 100x25 pixel banner is 'advertising' but as far a photographer is concerned 'shooting an ad' means press, adshel or billboard etc.

[LesPalenik]

Your opinions are different than Shutterstocks, and I care about their opinions more because they're how I intend to make money.

Both of these images were accepted by Shutterstock, which was my goal (as opposed to satisfying you lot). But I admit I was surprised they took the 85mm shot. Perhaps the reviewer found it interesting, or perhaps all they care about is that a certain percentage of the image is sharp, in which case the tilt served it's purpose.

If you really want to make money, the most effective way would be to convert the D810 and the TS lenses into cash, and for $500 buy a refurbished D5100 with a 35mm or 50mm prime. Many bestselling stock images were taken with a 6MP D70 or D40. Putting $7-$10K into SS shares might be a better investment than spending it on equipment with hope to pay for it with 25cents per image.  

By reading on MSG forum the posts from experienced contributors you will learn that the SS acceptance doesn't always necessarily correlate with the technical image quality, even when taken with a TS lens. Main thing is to keep trying, sometimes you get lucky.

[trevarthan]

If you really want to make money, the most effective way would be to convert the D810 and the TS lenses into cash, and for $500 buy a refurbished D5100 with a 35mm or 50mm prime. Many bestselling stock images were taken with a 6MP D70 or D40. Putting $7-$10K into SS shares might be a better investment than spending it on equipment with hope to pay for it with 25cents per image.  

By reading on MSG forum the posts from experienced contributors you will learn that the SS acceptance doesn't always necessarily correlate with the technical image quality, even when taken with a TS lens. Main thing is to keep trying, sometimes you get lucky.

I'm a software engineer for a living. In the back of my mind, I'm always thinking about making my own stock site someday. I play the game not just for money, but understanding and experience.

[allegretto]

funny thing about photography… unlike some other forms, it's rather easy to take a good picture or two, then buy some snazzy gear… take another good pic or two.. and by God, what do you know… you're at least semi-pro

before you know it, you're giving advice, asking questions… and when you don't get the answer you want (even when it's from folks who have been doing it longer than you've been alive) arrogance and insult emerge, because after all, you're almost a Pro.

gotta love the remark about lenses lying to you.. they do… worse than a wayward woman. One minute it's a great lens… rendition, color, depth of focus… WOW. Then it snaps and it's like waiting for her to call back…

TS-lenses…? Got a Canon TS-24 and Man, I was styling. Heck that Zeiss 21 couldn't hold a candle… then, oh, wait…. TS lenses are a bytch if you want them to really do their thing. Sure, Scheimfplug… whatever… everyone knows that. Just a little tilt and… oh, wait, not quite… hmmmm, maybe 1/2 deg more… oh, no, wrong direction… back and forth.. Geeezz, this lens doesn't work. I got it to _____ (fill in your blank), and it seemed to do it, but now I can't quite get it

So you ask, and you find out all those scales and diagrams are fine, but now that you're out here, unless you have a decade or two of experience, it's cut and try… and try and cut… oh darn… it's not working…!!!

Better ask… and the response is, "sorry mister, you don't yet understand it and in any case you're using it wrong"… your ears turn red, your voice cracks. Who does this guy think he is telling me that I don't know? I'm a ______ engineer, I know just about everything

Psst… I got a couple TS lenses to sell ya cheap. I think I like my 21, or my 50 stopped down better anyway


cheers

[NancyP]

Actually, I have shot scenes where I dearly wished to try tilt. The idea is so straightforward, the pronunciation (Sch-Sch-Sch...) and execution so hard. I am an amateur and shot 135 when I shot film.

Solution to TS-GAS: Rent one for a weekend and just shoot with it and fiddle with the controls all day all weekend. Does it work for you? Yes? proceed to cash register. No? you scratched that itch and saved yourself money and time.