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Author Topic: Lightroom and DAM  (Read 29156 times)

jjj

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2014, 07:37:29 pm »

This thread continues to throw up interesting issues.

Ultimately, no matter how good we are using the Develop module and the various output modules, it is the Library module, and by extension the import dialog that really determines how usable Lightroom is to us.
Absolutely. Finding your images is the first and most important stage of being able to develop or do anything with them.  :)

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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2014, 07:41:54 pm »

But where in Swansea?

Maybe that's a bad example for me as I don't know what, or how big, Swansea is. My locations end up being a city or an island: Mexico > Cozumel > San Miguel or North Carolina > Oak Island.

If I was in Southend when I took a picture of Swansea, I'd put it in the Southend folder, not the Swansea folder. I'm after the location my feet were in, not the location in the picture.
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digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2014, 07:44:53 pm »

I think you are missing the point with regard to what I'm saying where physical folders that are organised by subject where circumstance change and thus outgrow your original organising idea.
If in the simplest form I've described their use they do, you simply add more folders or refine the name as I illustrated by adding the name Cat to the Dog folder or adding a Cat subfolder.
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Photos of your own dogs is quite manageable by your system, but if you became a pro shooter of dogs then suddenly all dog photos in one place would be a bit like the Kelby suggestion you do not like.

Not at all! First, all the other folders besides Dog are still useful in finding items in those folders outside the DAM. 2nd, that isn't at all like Kelby suggesting one folder for all images and then finding them solely in the DAM (using proprietary dumb collections too).
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Having your primary organisation done in a way where you would never need to redo it such as dates is better than one such as subject where it could become unwieldy.
Who said anything about primary but you? You don't seem to understand the simple role of naming and organizing folders outside the DAM. It's far from primary.
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Metadata is much better for organising subjects. As illustrated by this reply.
Who here has suggested otherwise?
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But if you have a physical folder dedicated to dogs as well as one dedicated to places then where do you put the dog photo?
I told you, I'll tell you again, it doesn't matter. Put them where it makes most sense to you. For me, the answer would be, in the dog folder.
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Organise physical folders by dates and then use metadata to do the subject organising as a lot of images can be of many subjects.

Dates are meaningless to me. If they are meaningful to you, please do so. Separating dogs into different folders by date would make finding the images outside the DAM nearly impossible for me while having them all in one folder makes it very easy for me.
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For example - a photo of your pet dog with your girlfriend in Swansea, so is the picture in the Swansea folder, a dog folder or girlfriend folder? Dated folders make for less work and no need to worry where things go when importing. Add keywords at your leisure which can then feed into smart collections.
Not on my system, my dog would go into the dog folder. A number of keywords could define Swansea or girlfriend. If outside the DAM I needed to find a picture of my dog, it's going to be in the dog folder. Pretty simple.
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I originally used to do folders by subject myself, but realised how terribly limiting and time consuming it was and moved to date folders+metadata.
So you modified a system that didn't work for you with one that does. Your system isn't going to work for me. It might not work for Bob.
There's nothing you've stated thus far that doesn't support my way of working for me, if a single folder named Dog doesn't have sufficient granularity, very easy to create a new folder in LR and call it Border Collie, Whippet, Huskey and move existing images there or just start placing those breeds into sub folders. The same images would still have keywords describing those breeds. But if I needed to find a photo of a dog, I know what folder to look in outside the DAM. I don't see how you miss that this is both simple, flexible and most importantly, a system that works for me and has since before LR shipped.
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jjj

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2014, 08:09:04 pm »

Maybe that's a bad example for me as I don't know what, or how big, Swansea is. My locations end up being a city or an island: Mexico > Cozumel > San Miguel or North Carolina > Oak Island.

If I was in Southend when I took a picture of Swansea, I'd put it in the Southend folder, not the Swansea folder. I'm after the location my feet were in, not the location in the picture.

But where Southend is is not exactly easy to say. There are no signs referring to it as Southend, I doubt any visitor would realise that is where they were, I grew up there and couldn't tell you where it officially starts or stops. Or even if there is an official demarking of the area.
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digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2014, 08:09:52 pm »

Maybe that's a bad example for me as I don't know what, or how big, Swansea is.
Even if you did, is that important to you? GPS metadata would be far more useful too. Don't get me wrong, it might be very important to divide up all the various locations in Swansea but it might not. Seth has hundreds upon hundreds of keywords as for his workflow he needs it. I have a fraction of the number of keywords as Seth. But I've as yet had very few issues finding my images. And as I keep saying, that's the bottom line, what your needs are. Seth (who's a friend and partner) has never told me I must use more keywords. Don't let anyone here tell you the method you use to file anything isn't correct. For you!
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Tony Jay

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2014, 08:23:43 pm »

Even if you did, is that important to you? GPS metadata would be far more useful too. Don't get me wrong, it might be very important to divide up all the various locations in Swansea but it might not. Seth has hundreds upon hundreds of keywords as for his workflow he needs it. I have a fraction of the number of keywords as Seth. But I've as yet had very few issues finding my images. And as I keep saying, that's the bottom line, what your needs are. Seth (who's a friend and partner) has never told me I must use more keywords. Don't let anyone here tell you the method you use to file anything isn't correct. For you!
There are a couple of important points here:
1. Workflow does need to be individualised. A perfect solution for one is anathema to another.
2. Understanding principles is crucial otherwise the implementation will be poor and unusable.
3. Suggestions are good - prescriptions are bad - see 1. and 2.

For what it is worth my workflow is very different to Andrew's. I have a very detailed keyword hierarchy approaching 24 000 keywords, and counting. I also make extensive use of IPTC metadata fields and therefore metadata presets to help that process. Smart collections, as a result, becomes the primary method by which I organise myself - even for what I do in the Develop module.
However, I would be very cautious in recommending that anyone else implement my workflow in detail unless I understood their workflow needs to the nth degree.
Far rather people get ideas from my workflow that are implementable and rational for their workflow.

Tony Jay
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digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2014, 08:32:25 pm »

For what it is worth my workflow is very different to Andrew's. I have a very detailed keyword hierarchy approaching 24 000 keywords, and counting. I also make extensive use of IPTC metadata fields and therefore metadata presets to help that process. Smart collections, as a result, becomes the primary method by which I organise myself - even for what I do in the Develop module.
Other than how we might organize our folders, our workflows are probably not that different. I don't have anywhere the number of keywords but use them religiously for all images. I have a boat load of Smart Collections, love em. I use IPTC metadata fields a lot too. I wish LR would allow us to search and build SC's on any and every such field (why it doesn't after all these years I can't understand).
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ppmax2

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2014, 10:48:53 pm »

This thread clearly shows that people want to be able to find their images outside the DAM, and that finding that needle in the haystack is challenging. Who needs a DAM if the OS could handle this use case buy itself?

Out of curiosity: on average, how many keywords do you all apply to your images? 5? 10? 20?

Windows (NTFS) and Mac OS both support filenames of up to 255 characters, not including the extension. Why not just rename your files according to the keywords that you apply to the image? It would be trivial to write a script for exiftool to do this.

This easily solves the problem of finding images outside the DAM since Windows and Mac OS can both find files that contain some string. A file named "Susan-Johnny-California-Calistoga-Wedding-Sunset[-sequence, if necessary].CR2" is infinitely more findable and recognizable than some abbreviation or abstraction through folders. It also means you aren't duplicating data, since the capture date metadata, file creation date, file modification date, etc are available for sorting, filtering, etc.

If, on average, there are 25 keywords applied and each keyword contains 10 chars, the filename is a better place to describe the contents of the image since the filename is often used to describe the contents or subject of the file. This avoids all the tomfoolery associated with devising complex folder structures.

PP
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Isaac

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #68 on: August 09, 2014, 11:50:10 pm »

OK, so that leaves you with a bunch of renamed images in the initial folder all ready for editing and adjustments. From there, how do you get them all distributed into the folder-by-date structure? Drag and drop?

The name given to the initial folder, when it was created, would be that days date ("20140809") and I move images from my camera into that "20140809" folder using a mini USB cable and select all / copy / paste - so the "initial" folder is actually the final folder.

All the image files end-up being prefixed with the name of the folder that contains them and suffixed to ensure unique names.
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Tony Jay

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2014, 05:20:46 am »

This thread clearly shows that people want to be able to find their images outside the DAM, and that finding that needle in the haystack is challenging. Who needs a DAM if the OS could handle this use case buy itself?

Out of curiosity: on average, how many keywords do you all apply to your images? 5? 10? 20?

Windows (NTFS) and Mac OS both support filenames of up to 255 characters, not including the extension. Why not just rename your files according to the keywords that you apply to the image? It would be trivial to write a script for exiftool to do this.

This easily solves the problem of finding images outside the DAM since Windows and Mac OS can both find files that contain some string. A file named "Susan-Johnny-California-Calistoga-Wedding-Sunset[-sequence, if necessary].CR2" is infinitely more findable and recognizable than some abbreviation or abstraction through folders. It also means you aren't duplicating data, since the capture date metadata, file creation date, file modification date, etc are available for sorting, filtering, etc.

If, on average, there are 25 keywords applied and each keyword contains 10 chars, the filename is a better place to describe the contents of the image since the filename is often used to describe the contents or subject of the file. This avoids all the tomfoolery associated with devising complex folder structures.

PP
If you really want to do this you can but I would not recommend this approach.
Searching for images outside of DAM software is not mean't to be a common approach but something that one may have to resort to when there is an issue.

Tony Jay
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dieter268

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2014, 08:55:05 am »

Here the workflow I have developed over the years as a amateur with some 1000 photos a year.
I copy the pictures to the computer from the cards via the operating system, not within lightroom.
The reson for this is that I often have more then one card, often I have my "serious" DSLR and a little Point-and-Shoot.
I copy all the files in a folder year/yyyy_mm_dd_"a description of the shoot" . So, if I do a portrait session with my girlfriend or my niece it will their name, if I go to the zoo it will be the name of the zoo, if I am in the city it will be that name, just something that reminds me where I was or what I shot.
Then I import the folder into Lightroom and let it create the previews (und often have a coffee or dinner while the machine does it's work, this is why I import after copying).
After this I do my keywording and geocoding.
I use the folders for short term uses, say I want show my mother the shots from the last shooting with my niece, I just select the correct folder within LR and show her.
Otherwise I would have to search by date and the name of my niece.
On the other hand, if I want search all the pictures of the tiger in our zoo, keyword search is the method of choice.
I strongly believe there is no "correct" way of organizing his or her pictures, everyone has different needs, different ways to think or remember things.
Of course I took ideas and methods of others, but at the end I had to develop my own method that works for me.   
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john beardsworth

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2014, 09:11:26 am »

I strongly believe there is no "correct" way of organizing his or her pictures, everyone has different needs, different ways to think or remember things.

But that doesn't mean all ways are equally good.
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dennbel

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #72 on: August 10, 2014, 09:20:49 am »

"I strongly believe there is no "correct" way of organizing his or her pictures, everyone has different needs, different ways to think or remember things.
Of course I took ideas and methods of others, but at the end I had to develop my own method that works for me."  

My sentiments exactly!!!  I find it quite irksome when some people say "No, your way is all wrong" B.S., if it works for me, it's most certainly correct. Could there be improvements, probably. But only if I am having a problem do I need to adjust. Had I done it a different way in the beginning, perhaps it would work better, but to redo a system that suffices on 10's of thousands of images would be insane (for me). Possibly changing going forth, but that would depend on if the present system is really problematic!
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dennbel

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2014, 09:32:12 am »

But that doesn't mean all ways are equally good.

But that judgement is up to the individual, as what's good for one may not be good for another. Has someone been appointed to be the almighty ranker from good to bad. (I know, there could be flaws in anyones system and could be improved in someway)
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jjj

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2014, 09:33:13 am »

The name given to the initial folder, when it was created, would be that days date ("20140809") and I move images from my camera into that "20140809" folder using a mini USB cable and select all / copy / paste - so the "initial" folder is actually the final folder.
Not heard of this new fangled thing called drag and drop then Issac?  ;)
Easier to use LR to import images into folders by date anyway. Even better when they are images from multiple dates.
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2014, 09:34:01 am »

In my mind, this issue isn't so much about what way is "correct." It's more about ways that can lead to dead ends as the photo library expands.

For example, many would agree that a single folder full of 100 pictures may not be a problem today. But when that library grows to tens of thousands with many different subjects taken in may different places for many different reasons, that idea will hit a dead end. The owner may not see that coming.

I've mentioned a potential dead end to my folders-by-location arrangement. One day I may have so many pictures that they can't all fit on a single storage device. At that point, bringing on a second storage device brings the question of what to do with that system? I'd probably have to move an arbitrary number of top level location folders to the new device. If my system were folders-by-date, I'd just cut over to the second device on a certain date.

For me, my system works well and I'm willing to take the chance that I may have a somewhat less good solution if I have to split things across storage devices. Or maybe storage devices will continue to grow in capacity at least as fast as my library grows.

My reason for starting the thread in the first place was to hear from others, with more experience and larger libraries, about potential dead ends.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2014, 09:38:47 am »

But that judgement is up to the individual, as what's good for one may not be good for another. Has someone been appointed to be the almighty ranker from good to bad. (I know, there could be flaws in anyones system and could be improved in someway)

No it isn't. Bad practice is bad practice.
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dennbel

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2014, 09:45:13 am »

No it isn't. Bad practice is bad practice.

No? what isn't???
I agree, a bad practice is a bad practice. But you telling me my system is bad, when it works great for me is B.S. just because it doesn't follow your way of thinking.
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digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2014, 09:58:06 am »

I've mentioned a potential dead end to my folders-by-location arrangement. One day I may have so many pictures that they can't all fit on a single storage device. At that point, bringing on a second storage device brings the question of what to do with that system?
I don't see that being a problem this early in the more san's coffee. LR can easily deal with multiple drives. Say you have one drive with all your folders. Let's say for simplicity there are 26 root folders (A-Z). Your drive is getting too full. You buy another. In LR you move folder K-Z to new, secondary drive. Don't let potential FUD lead you to believe the system you are using or envisioning will explode in your face someday.
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jjj

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Re: Lightroom and DAM
« Reply #79 on: August 10, 2014, 09:59:19 am »

If in the simplest form I've described their use they do, you simply add more folders or refine the name as I illustrated by adding the name Cat to the Dog folder or adding a Cat subfolder. 
There's nothing you've stated thus far that doesn't support my way of working for me, if a single folder named Dog doesn't have sufficient granularity, very easy to create a new folder in LR and call it Border Collie, Whippet, Huskey and move existing images there or just start placing those breeds into sub folders. The same images would still have keywords describing those breeds. But if I needed to find a photo of a dog, I know what folder to look in outside the DAM. I don't see how you miss that this is both simple, flexible and most importantly, a system that works for me and has since before LR shipped.
Still missing the point I was making. A date system never needs to be amended after the fact. Whereas as you just mentioned and as I previously illustrated above that you need to physically move images around folders as your library expands and gets more complex if filing by subject.

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Who said anything about primary but you? You don't seem to understand the simple role of naming and organizing folders outside the DAM.
So back to your usual insulting and inaccurate self I see. Two people used the word primary, but in two different ways. Go back and read posts properly before replying. And I certainly do understand naming and organising files outside of a dam as that's why I take great pains to organise my work in folders that I can easily browse in or outside of LR

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It's far from primary. Who here has suggested otherwise? I told you, I'll tell you again, it doesn't matter. Put them where it makes most sense to you. For me, the answer would be, in the dog folder. 
I always tell people to place things where it makes sense to them. Doesn't mean their system is not badly flawed or even bonkers though.

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Dates are meaningless to me. If they are meaningful to you, please do so. Separating dogs into different folders by date would make finding the images outside the DAM nearly impossible for me while having them all in one folder makes it very easy for me.  Not on my system, my dog would go into the dog folder. A number of keywords could define Swansea or girlfriend. If outside the DAM I needed to find a picture of my dog, it's going to be in the dog folder. Pretty simple.
Not really as you need to use a DAM to find Swansea or girlfriend but not dog. That is fine if dogs are you primary interest and nothing else is important.
This is why physically filing by subject is flawed as photos can be many subjects at the same time.

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So you modified a system that didn't work for you with one that does. Your system isn't going to work for me. It might not work for Bob.
Not saying you should change, but I am pointing out how it is flawed and scales poorly as your library expands.

The reality is that if you have a large library of images a DAM is the only way to find all aspects of your work. Organising folders so that a file browser can also easily be used is sensible as it's a belt and braces [or suspenders in American] way of working. Using just metadata or just physical folders has huge drawbacks to each system, together however they are very complementary.
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