Scottish Independende Debate

[john beardsworth]

Life's too short to spend it watching Ed Milliband interviews! Isn't it funny that Scots imagine the English would accept a currency union with any foreign country? Why is it so hard to accept that after a divorce the other person might not want to a joint bank account? Just think, with proper independence you can have your very own shiny McPounds with pictures of Bannockburn and Wembley 1967 on the back. The Scottish Pound would be pretty strong too, which is a two-edged sword, of course.

[AreBee]

Justinr,

On the other hand it could just be a scare tactic to frighten people into voting no.

If it is, then according to the latest polls it is working.

Stamper,

Milliband is shitting himself because in the event of a Yes vote he will lose 29 Scottish MP's and the Labour party will be eternally in opposition.

The commonly held belief that Labour is reliant on Scottish MPs in order to secure a majority in a General Election is not bourne out by the data. In 14 out of the previous 18 General Elections the loss of Scotland’s votes would not have changed the outcome.

[AreBee]

John,

Just think, with proper independence you can have your very own shiny McPounds with pictures of Bannockburn and Wembley 1967 on the back.

Or, we could just use Sterling.

[john beardsworth]

John,

Or, we could just use Sterling.

Absolutely, and I think it would have been better to advocate this route and not pretend Scotland can make England join a currency union. But why wouldn't any red-blooded Scot wouldn't want an independent currency?

[AreBee]

Isaac,

We meet at last. Welcome.

Politicians act honestly in their own self-interest.

Yes, I dare say they do.

Was your statement intended to refute my own, or was it merely an observation?

John,

...I think it would have been better to advocate this route and not pretend Scotland can make England join a currency union.

What has been proposed is that a currency union is economically in the best interest of Scotland and the rUK. This has been shown to be true, and shown to be not true, depending on which side one listens to. To the best of my knowledge what you suggest has not been proposed.

...why wouldn't any red-blooded Scot wouldn't want an independent currency?

If it is correct that a currency union is in the best interest of Scotland, then anything other than that is a poorer option.

[john beardsworth]

Making England join a currency union seems to be exactly what Salmond proposes.

[AreBee]

John,

Making England join a currency union seems to be exactly what Salmond proposes.

Either Alex Salmond has or has not proposed what you suggest. You appear to consider that he has.

For the avoidance of doubt, do you have any evidence you can post in this thread which supports your view, or is it exactly that - a personal view?

[john beardsworth]

All the English parties say very clearly that they won't join a currency union and are putting it in their 2015 manifestos, while Salmond proposes to have a union.

[stamper]

Imagine this. Scotland votes yes. Milliband then declares no currency union as a manifesto promise which will leave both the labour voters in England & Scotland worse off. What a slap in the face to loyal Scottish voters. 18 months from now there is a union negotiated. He would look a right jerk, not that he isn't right now?

[stamper]

Life's too short to spend it watching Ed Milliband interviews! Isn't it funny that Scots imagine the English would accept a currency union with any foreign country? Why is it so hard to accept that after a divorce the other person might not want to a joint bank account? Just think, with proper independence you can have your very own shiny McPounds with pictures of Bannockburn and Wembley 1967 on the back. The Scottish Pound would be pretty strong too, which is a two-edged sword, of course.

John they have a currency union with Gibraltar.

[john beardsworth]

Not a country, a tiny dependent territory. So you want to liken Scotland to a slice of rock with a lot of baboons and an economy totally dependent on holes in UK banking, tax and gambling laws?

[stamper]

John a negotiated currency union will happen. Scotland can and imo should reject sharing any part of the debt. That would be a disaster for England if they rejected the debt share. So that alone will be a powerful negotiating ploy.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/02/flaw-osbornes-pre-emptive-strike-against-currency-union

[Justinr]

John they have a currency union with Gibraltar.

You needn't limit it to Gibraltar. The Isle of Man, Channel Islands and to a certain extent N. Ireland, they all look the same on the surface and share the same currency but you don't have to dig too far to find that they work quite differently.

[stamper]

Quote John.

Life's too short to spend it watching Ed Milliband interviews! Isn't it funny that Scots imagine the English would accept a currency union with any foreign country?

unquote

You are probably correct about Gibraltar but my rebuttal was posted to point that you were wrong posting the statement.

[stamper]

I am wondering why - like most Scots - England is trying so hard to hold on to us. A lot of the English see us as subsidy junkies, which isn't true. Is it the oil? I suspect there is a large oilfield that has been discovered that they aren't telling us about. Or don't they want Trident placed on the shores of the Thames? Do they want to make Scotland pay a large part of the debt that a Labour government created with their mismanagement of the economy. Or is because the simply like us despite the Scots electing only one Tory MP? I don't think it is because they simply like us. So why are they reluctant to let us go?

[stamper]

Justinr,

If it is, then according to the latest polls it is working.

Stamper,

The commonly held belief that Labour is reliant on Scottish MPs in order to secure a majority in a General Election is not bourne out by the data. In 14 out of the previous 18 General Elections the loss of Scotland’s votes would not have changed the outcome.

Voting trends differ with every election. Ukip is on the rise and will take a large share of the vote and we are into a particular time period where hung Parliaments could be the norm. So 29 seats will be crucial to Labour. Image an England free from Scotland and there is an election that the Tories win by a dozen seats.

[john beardsworth]

You are probably correct about Gibraltar but my rebuttal was posted to point that you were wrong posting the statement.

Gibraltar isn't actually a country, nor are the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands. They are British Overseas Territories under UK sovereignty, each about the size of a small town, and their economies would be nothing without UK tax and gambling loopholes. Tiny tax havens aren't comparable to a country like Scotland. So yes, the UK doesn't have currency unions with foreign countries.

The UK government has advice that currency union would not be in the interests of the remainder of the UK. As Rob said, "This has been shown to be true, and shown to be not true, depending on which side one listens to" but it's clear the English parties believe that advice and consider that currency union would be almost as politically suicidal as joining the Euro.

[john beardsworth]

I am wondering why - like most Scots - England is trying so hard to hold on to us. A lot of the English see us as subsidy junkies, which isn't true. Is it the oil? I suspect there is a large oilfield that has been discovered that they aren't telling us about. Or don't they want Trident placed on the shores of the Thames? Do they want to make Scotland pay a large part of the debt that a Labour government created with their mismanagement of the economy. Or is because the simply like us despite the Scots electing only one Tory MP? I don't think it is because they simply like us. So why are they reluctant to let us go?

It's probably simple colonialism, if that makes you feel any better. We just loved the Rannoch Moor scene in Trainspotting.

Anyway, doesn't polling indicate most Scots want to hold on to England?

[Justinr]

I am wondering why - like most Scots - England is trying so hard to hold on to us. A lot of the English see us as subsidy junkies, which isn't true. Is it the oil? I suspect there is a large oilfield that has been discovered that they aren't telling us about. Or don't they want Trident placed on the shores of the Thames? Do they want to make Scotland pay a large part of the debt that a Labour government created with their mismanagement of the economy. Or is because the simply like us despite the Scots electing only one Tory MP? I don't think it is because they simply like us. So why are they reluctant to let us go?

I think its a lot more simple than that, it's just anal retentiveness, they've lost their empire and now even Scotland may go! How will the mandarins justify their self importance and vast salaries, Cameron will have even less reason to look big on the world stage, just what will GCHQ do with 5m less people to spy on etc etc? Add to that there is the awful realisation that not everybody loves the English as much as they thought after all and they need to do a bit more than be on the winning side in a couple of large wars to win the hearts and minds of the world at large.

[AreBee]

Stamper,

Imagine this. Scotland votes yes. Milliband then declares no currency union as a manifesto promise which will leave both the labour voters in England & Scotland worse off. What a slap in the face to loyal Scottish voters.

The situation would be worse than you describe. If Scotland votes Yes then it will remain a part of the UK until nominally 2016. In other words, Scotland would be a part of the UK at the next General Election in 2015, yet all three unionist parties would have as part of their manifesto a pledge that purportedly would be in the best interest of the rUK rather than the UK. It would be wilful neglect of a part of the UK they were elected to represent.

 

I suspect there is a large oilfield that has been discovered that they aren't telling us about.

Just the one? There are reputed to be vast oil and gas fields in the North Atlantic Margin that have yet to be tapped. Apparently the largest field in the world lies a short distance off the coast of Lewis. In addition, the MoD is known to have blocked exploration of oil in the Firth of Clyde waters.

Presumably you are aware of the McCrone Report?

Voting trends differ with every election. Ukip is on the rise and will take a large share of the vote and we are into a particular time period where hung Parliaments could be the norm. So 29 seats will be crucial to Labour. Image an England free from Scotland and there is an election that the Tories win by a dozen seats.

Yes, it is certainly the case that when the result is close, Scottish votes can influence the result.

John,

Gibraltar isn't actually a country, nor are the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands

Nor is Wales, which is a Principality.