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Author Topic: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux  (Read 86281 times)

jjj

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2014, 11:34:59 am »

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Isaac

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2014, 11:56:56 am »

…not that difficulty in producing a shot should have any bearing on something's artistic worth.

If "difficulty" had any relevance it might be the difficulty of making a picture that interests other people; and plainly, as social creatures, we're wired to recognize faces and posture, and detect relationships and status.

Rocks and trees? How do you make those interesting? ;-)
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RSL

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2014, 02:46:53 pm »

Hi Jeremy, Good to see you back. If you go back and read the posts carefully you'll see that I agree with you on the question of being a one-trick pony. Like you, I do it all. I prefer street over all other genres, but not to exclusion of the rest of the world. I do stand by what I said about relative difficulties.
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RSL

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2014, 08:11:28 pm »

£3million is serious money regardless of art genre. Besides how do you make out that Gursky's isn't serious? What is serious photography anyway, does it taste different or something and should I try it?

As I said, if money is your guide to what's great you're in the wrong line of work. Try learning to paint. Gursky may be "serious," and three mil is serious money, but is Rhein II serious art? Seems to me there's the world of serious art and then there's the world of art auctions. They're two different things. As an example, check http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=91241.0.
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Telecaster

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2014, 10:03:34 pm »

I suspect Gursky is a cynical piss taker...but I don't claim to know this. I could be attributing his commercial success to cool calculation when maybe it mostly just happened to him.

-Dave-
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Gulag

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2014, 10:45:03 pm »

“Roughly speaking, you have three big trends. The first, and most important one, the one that gets eighty percent of the subsidies, whose pieces go for the most money, is gore in general: amputations, cannibalism, enucleation, etc. All the collaboration work done with serial killers, for example. The second is the one that uses humor: there’s irony directed at the art market, à la Ben; or at finer things, à la Broodthaers, where it’s all about provoking uneasiness and shame in the spectator, the artist, or in both, by presenting a pitiful, mediocre spectacle that leaves you constantly doubting whether it has the slightest artistic value; then there’s all the work on kitsch, which draws you in, which you come close to, and can empathize with, on the condition that you signal by means of a meta-narration that you’re not fooled by it. Finally, there is a third trend, this is the virtual: it’s usually young artists, influenced by manga and by heroic fantasies; many of them start like that, then fall back to the first trend once they realize they can’t make their living on the Internet...There is a famous phrase that divides artists into two categories: revolutionaries and decorators…The revolutionaries are those who are capable of coming to terms with the brutality of the world, and of responding to it with increased brutality…Before Duchamp, the artist had as his ultimate goal a worldview that was at once personal and accurate, that is to say moving; it was already a huge ambition. Since Duchamp, the artist no longer contents himself with putting forward a worldview, he seeks to create his own world; he is very precisely the rival of God."

— Michel Houellebecq, The Possibility of an Island
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— Jean Baudrillard

Isaac

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #66 on: July 31, 2014, 12:51:26 pm »

I suspect Gursky is a cynical piss taker...but I don't claim to know this. I could be attributing his commercial success to cool calculation when maybe it mostly just happened to him.

I suspect such derogatory remarks are based on little more than the fact that Gursky has been successful. (In the same way that there are always those who feel the need to make-small Ansel Adams and Henri Cartier-Bresson and…)
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #67 on: July 31, 2014, 12:59:29 pm »

Broader interests?

I have very broad interests too. I have interest in steaks and interest in vine. Neither makes me a cook, let alone a chef, nor enologist. I have interests in Eric Satie and Metallica, neither of which makes me a classic pianist, nor rocker.

Having interest in photography or any of its genres doest not make anyone a photographer, let alone a good one, as I am sure you perfectly understand.

Isaac

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2014, 02:01:30 pm »

With context -- being equally happy doing both landscape and street photography does not make one a "Jack all trades, master of none", as I am sure you perfectly understand.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2014, 02:11:19 pm »

With context -- being equally happy doing both landscape and street photography does not make one a "Jack all trades, master of none", as I am sure you perfectly understand.

It does make them an "equally happy master of none" though.

Isaac

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2014, 02:17:25 pm »

Even if I was interested in third-party name-calling, that's no more than pathetic.
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Telecaster

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2014, 04:35:55 pm »

Ansel Adams at his best made technically excellent photos of compelling subject matter. Henri Cartier-Bresson at his best made often mundane subject matter compelling via composition & timing. Creative vision plus craft in both cases IMO. With Gursky I don't see anything more than mundane facsimiles of the mundane. Is he, in his own inner self, doing creative work? Or is he merely addressing a lucrative market? I suppose he could be doing both. I suppose he could see himself as a creative who got lucky. Or as a creative who deserved success. I have my take on him...but I'm willing to be informed by further evidence & analysis.

-Dave-
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jjj

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2014, 04:57:39 pm »

It does make them an "equally happy master of none" though.
Why don't come right out and say my photography is crap then Slobodan? As that what you are repeatedly implying.
The big problem with your childish insults is that I'm actually pretty good at a whole host of things and that includes many genres of photography. I call myself a photographer, not a landscape photographer or street photographer or portrait photographer for a reason.
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jjj

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #73 on: July 31, 2014, 05:06:46 pm »

Hi Jeremy, Good to see you back. If you go back and read the posts carefully you'll see that I agree with you on the question of being a one-trick pony. Like you, I do it all. I prefer street over all other genres, but not to exclusion of the rest of the world. I do stand by what I said about relative difficulties.
Been really busy with house renovation of late which hopefully soon will mean not only will guests be able to stay again, but I will have a decent sized photo studio at home.  ;D So only time for the occasional post on LuL of late.
I think something's difficulty is relative to how good you are at that task. Some may find street harder than landscape and vice versa.
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jjj

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #74 on: July 31, 2014, 05:09:54 pm »

If "difficulty" had any relevance it might be the difficulty of making a picture that interests other people; and plainly, as social creatures, we're wired to recognize faces and posture, and detect relationships and status.

Rocks and trees? How do you make those interesting? ;-)
There's two types of difficulty with photography. How tricky it was to get that shot, waiting up a tree for two weeks to catch a glimpse of a snow leopard and then as you mention the difficulty of making easy to capture  something look good. I was talking more about the former.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 05:15:16 pm by jjj »
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jjj

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #75 on: July 31, 2014, 05:14:47 pm »

I suspect Gursky is a cynical piss taker...but I don't claim to know this. I could be attributing his commercial success to cool calculation when maybe it mostly just happened to him.

Ansel Adams at his best made technically excellent photos of compelling subject matter. Henri Cartier-Bresson at his best made often mundane subject matter compelling via composition & timing. Creative vision plus craft in both cases IMO. With Gursky I don't see anything more than mundane facsimiles of the mundane. Is he, in his own inner self, doing creative work? Or is he merely addressing a lucrative market? I suppose he could be doing both. I suppose he could see himself as a creative who got lucky. Or as a creative who deserved success. I have my take on him...but I'm willing to be informed by further evidence & analysis.
I'd say Gursky was the same as the two you mention i.e. Creative vision plus craft in both cases , closer to Adams though in work.

I've seen his stuff in the flesh, which is the only way to appreciate it as scale matters, but I also saw a BBC or Channel 4 documentary on him a few years back which was quite interesting. He certainly didn't come across as a cynic but simply an artist who for whatever reason had become a success.
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #76 on: July 31, 2014, 05:36:16 pm »

...Gursky may be "serious," and three mil is serious money, but is Rhein II serious art? Seems to me there's the world of serious art and then there's the world of art auctions.

But isn’t that just envy? .. and don’t worry, I suffer from it too.

If someone succeeds in an art that we are pursuing passionately and yet we have not, no matter how long or hard we have been trying, it is pointless to compare whether we are more accomplished (but who is to judge) than they or visa versa and is ultimately irrelevant. Because whatever we think of their work, they have the luxury of looking down on us from the position of having ‘made it’ and gaining the stamp of approval through commercial success and subsequent recognition.

The fact that Gursky had a photograph sell for 3,000,000, is a winning argument that none of us here can counter, so no amount of us decrying what he has done will undermine the success of that work. Whether we like it or not he has succeeded and we have not and to put down his work based on nothing more than an unqualified presumption that we know better, can therefore only be regarded as envy.

Dave
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 05:56:47 pm by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #77 on: July 31, 2014, 05:38:13 pm »

Why don't come right out and say my photography is crap then Slobodan?

Fine, if you insist: your photography is crap.

Quote
...I'm actually pretty good at a whole host of things and that includes many genres of photography...

I think there is a technical term for that level of modesty: "pretentious jerk", perhaps?

Quote
... I call myself a photographer, not a landscape photographer or street photographer or portrait photographer for a reason.

Exactly. Then why are you so offended with "Jack of all trades, master of none" when you just confirmed it yourself? Why did you then offer yourself as an example in the debate "true landscape photographers vs. true street photographers" when you are neither by your own admission?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 05:48:03 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #78 on: July 31, 2014, 05:43:16 pm »

I have very broad interests too. I have interest in steaks and interest in vine. Neither makes me a cook, let alone a chef, nor enologist. I have interests in Eric Satie and Metallica, neither of which makes me a classic pianist, nor rocker.

Sorry, just a little wander off topic for a moment if I may...

That's good to know Slobodan, we have similar tastes it seems. Have you watched Metallica at Glastonbury 2014 yet? It is rather good - if not, then get this patched into your big screen TV, with your headphones cranked up and a good bottle of plonk and enjoy..

Dave
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 05:49:17 pm by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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jjj

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Re: Garry Winogrand: MonkeyCam Redux
« Reply #79 on: July 31, 2014, 05:53:14 pm »

Fine, since you are insisting: your photography is crap.

I think there is a technical term for that level of modesty: "pretentious jerk", perhaps?

Exactly. Than why are you so offended with "Jack of all trades, master of none" when you just confirmed it yourself? Why did you then offer yourself as an example in the debate true landscape photographers vs. true street photographers when you are neither by your own admission?
Wow such bile, misinterpretation and ignorance! You are really going out of your way to be nasty and unpleasant I see. So well done on mastering that useful skillset, your Mum would be so proud.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 07:08:22 pm by jjj »
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