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Author Topic: 20D Demands Best Lenses?  (Read 5072 times)

DixonZ

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« on: September 15, 2005, 10:35:08 am »

I hadn't thought about this until reading here that my 20D has the highest pixel density of all the Canon cameras. That means this camera exposes the weaknesses of lenses (not including the edges) even more than the 1DsII!

Does that mean that I should start reaching for prime lenses when I need the sharpest image now? At this pixel density, do prime lenses make a difference again?
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howard smith

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2005, 11:00:30 am »

The resolution will always be worse than either the lens or the sensor, never as good as even the weaker link.  When one element gets much better than the other, the results will approach the weaker one.  So, if the 20D is far superior to the lens' resolution, it is time for a better lens to get better resolution.

Also keep in mind that the weakest link may be the printed image or the human factor (eye sight).  Therefore, under practicle situations, a somewhat better lens may have very little effect on what the viewed print looks like.
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Ray

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2005, 07:49:23 pm »

How do you find your new 20D, Howard? Are you making full use of its capacity to rapidly take hundreds of variations on a theme, or do you you have a nostalgic longing for the ponderous techniques of large format?  :D
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DixonZ

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2005, 10:18:47 pm »

I was actually wondering if someone had tried the prime lenses against the zooms on the 20D to see if there is any worthwhile difference. Anyone? Nobody?

Maybe I just have to get a prime and find out for myself.
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Ray

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2005, 12:28:19 am »

There's always a difference between primes and zooms, but not necessarily in the amount of detail that's obvious in a 100% or 200% enlargement on the monitor.

You should find that the detail will be approximately the same, down to a single strand of hair, but the detail will be slightly better defined using a prime. The situation also applies to shots of test charts. Same number of lines visible in both cases (give or take a couple), but the prime will produce lines with more clearly defined edges.

I attribute this phenomenon to the fact that all good lenses really do out-resolve current DSLR sensors.
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howard smith

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2005, 09:12:21 am »

Well Ray, I like the 20D quite well.  I took it on a recent trip to the American West.  I used a 50mm f/1.8 and a 100mm macro the whole time.  I got two shots in San Diego that I like enough to have printed them and put them into my keeper book, and a couple from the Tetons.  All in all, I took about a hundred shots of my sons (many keepers for the family) and "we were there" pictures.  I haven't tossed out the medium and large format cameras yet.

Am I making full use of it?  No.  Too many buttons and knobs for that.
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boku

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2005, 09:18:55 am »

Quote
I was actually wondering if someone had tried the prime lenses against the zooms on the 20D to see if there is any worthwhile difference. Anyone? Nobody?

Maybe I just have to get a prime and find out for myself.
I use the following primes:
50mm f/1.4
100 f/2.8 macro
300 f/4 L

I compare these to the following Canon zooms I use (among others):
17-40 f/4 L
70-200 f?4 L

Bottom line: I hardly ever use the 50mm - I see no image benefit. I only use the 100mm for macro capabilities since it also is no better than the 70-200 zoom. As far as the 300 goes, I do not have a direct comparison, but I suspect no zoom will ever match its image quality.

Camera: Canon 20D

Hope that helps!
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Bob Kulon

Oh, one more thing...[b

lester_wareham

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2005, 08:01:22 am »

Just a quick question is the 100mm macro the new USM one or the old one?
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howard smith

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2005, 01:58:56 pm »

I use the older 100mm macro.
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boku

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2005, 07:10:50 pm »

I use the 100 macro with USM.
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Bob Kulon

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DixonZ

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2005, 01:58:07 am »

Thanks Boku, I know the 70-200 is good but I didn't know the 17-40 would be a match for the 50mm 1.4.
Very interesting.
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jani

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2005, 05:11:48 am »

Quote
Thanks Boku, I know the 70-200 is good but I didn't know the 17-40 would be a match for the 50mm 1.4.
Very interesting.
It all depends on what apertures you want to use.

I'm pretty certain that the 50mm f/1.4 is sharper and has better contrast at f/4 than the 17-40mm f/4L, but it might be hard to distinguish them at e.g. f/8.

But most importantly: if you want to use wider apertures (e.g. for a shallower DoF), the 17-40 just can't do it.
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Jan

dwdallam

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2005, 04:41:27 am »

Quote
Well Ray, I like the 20D quite well.  I took it on a recent trip to the American West.  I used a 50mm f/1.8 and a 100mm macro the whole time.  I got two shots in San Diego that I like enough to have printed them and put them into my keeper book, and a couple from the Tetons.  All in all, I took about a hundred shots of my sons (many keepers for the family) and "we were there" pictures.  I haven't tossed out the medium and large format cameras yet.

Am I making full use of it?  No.  Too many buttons and knobs for that.
Since I just ordered the 20D, this is a good thing from Howard.
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ijrwest

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2005, 04:20:04 pm »

Quote
my 20D has the highest pixel density of all ... do prime lenses make a difference again?
My zooms work well on the 20D. I think the lenses ( eg 17-40L, Tamron 28-70, 70-200L ) outresolve the sensor. So when you move from the 10D to the 20D you see the extra resolution that you had hoped for. Contrast is still better in prime lenses like the 50 f1.8. This was apparent with the lower resolution cameras as well.

Regards, Iain
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RobertJ

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2005, 08:14:58 pm »

Ever tried a Zeiss Distagon 28mm f/2.8 on a 20D?  It's become my favorite "normal" lens since it acts as a 45mm lens.  It's WAY sharper than my 50mm f/1.4 and my 135mm f/2L (at f/4-f/8).  It really pulls out small details that the other lenses don't.  However, it sucks wide open, and you have to manual focus with a small viewfinder, then stop down, and shoot, etc.  In controlled shooting, it's worth it.
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DonWeston

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2005, 07:40:40 pm »

There will always be some primes that out resolve even the best zoom lenses, but there are always caveats. Primes are fun and superior often as long as the subject remains stationary or at a more or less fixed position from the camera, if not manual primes become increasing less desirable and even AF primes loose an advantage in resolution. How much exactly can you crop off an image with a manual prime lens before its resolution catches up to a lesser zoom or even a good zoom??? If you lose 10% of the resolution advantage due to focus failure or poor cropping, is that enough to cancel any advantage or close the distance? Just posing the question, in a perfect world and stationary subjects and test charts, a manual prime may have an advantage, but in the real world, I might bet, it is not so often the case. In activities like sports or moving wildlife, I doubt there is any real life advantage. My only primes at the moment are macros for a reason, most of the time the subjects are confined or stationary. For the rest,  I find zooms a necessary trade off. Landscapes are one subject where the tradeoffs probably go both ways. Somewhat stationary, but IF you can not use your feet to change position or obtain the better cropping, the zoom will also achieve better end results despite being at a resolution disadvantage to start with. Also changing the foot position changes perspective which also may have negative effects on the overall shot and not desirable.

All this obviously has nothing to do with a fact that other things besides ultimate resolution is what makes a great picture GREAT most times. Controlling, recognising or using the light is, and the more you can recognise those factors, the less the lens quality ultimately matters up to a point.

Obviously equipment matters only as an ends to a means, to get the job done, in  sports more so than other types of photography, but it alone will not make you able to create great images.
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lester_wareham

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2005, 08:48:52 am »

Quote
Quote
Thanks Boku, I know the 70-200 is good but I didn't know the 17-40 would be a match for the 50mm 1.4.
Very interesting.
It all depends on what apertures you want to use.

I'm pretty certain that the 50mm f/1.4 is sharper and has better contrast at f/4 than the 17-40mm f/4L, but it might be hard to distinguish them at e.g. f/8.

But most importantly: if you want to use wider apertures (e.g. for a shallower DoF), the 17-40 just can't do it.
If Canon's MTF data is anything to go by the 50mm should be a lot better than the 17-40 @ 40 stopped down, particularly at the edge of FF. As every the 1.6X crop cameras will fare better.
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howard smith

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20D Demands Best Lenses?
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2005, 10:16:48 am »

"If Canon's MTF data ... ."

It is my understanding that Canon does not publish data but uses its theoretical information.
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