Best M4/3 predominantly for stills

[NigelC]

Thinking about supplementing or replacing my GH2 which with 20/1.7, 14-140 and 100-300 is my jack of all trades. Main criteria is best stills quality; I do video but not with any expertise, although I appreciate the autofocus quality and the crop mode on GH2 in video. I also make a lot of use of the format change on the GH2. Nothing really wrong with it (except tactile feel), indeed a very well thought out camera but would be nice to have less noise at higher sensitivity settings. I have tried a GH3 a while back and found it very comfortable to use but jump in size may be a bit self-defeating for M4/3. I feel GH4 maybe overkill with my "idiot mode" approach to video but while OMD-5 appears best for stills, seems less able to hold focus in video.

Any thoughts? I am inclined to think at the moment I won't see a game changing improvement from anything on the market and best investment would be most capable noise reduction software.

PS. I use DP Merrills 1/2/3 for pure pictorial stuff that might end up in big enlargements and they are my go to cameras whenever I can work round their shortcoming.

[Vladimirovich]

while OMD-5 appears best for stills

E-M5 does not have EFCS, that means shutter shock, look here = http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3651827

so in Olympus realm you need to go for E-M1 or E-M10

[SZRitter]

E-M5 does not have EFCS, that means shutter shock, look here = http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3651827

so in Olympus realm you need to go for E-M1 or E-M10

Or E-P5.

I think the only camera that would challenge the Oly lineup is the GH4. Supposedly, although I haven't seen hard numbers confirming it, the GH4 sensor may have just a little more DR than the Oly sensors. But I'm guessing the gains are marginal at best, if they are real.

[Vladimirovich]

Or E-P5.

true - but it seems OP wants some grip...

I think the only camera that would challenge the Oly lineup is the GH4. Supposedly, although I haven't seen hard numbers confirming it, the GH4 sensor may have just a little more DR than the Oly sensors. But I'm guessing the gains are marginal at best, if they are real.

GH4 has the same sensor as E-M1... GH4 being a more video oriented camera has AA filter, E-M1 does not... GH4 has DFD focusing technology to increase CDAF speed, E-M1 has PDAF on sensor... IMHO GH4 has only the following advantages : much better video camera, DFD (w/ Panasonic m43 lenses so far), electronic rolling shutter for stills (but that means 10bit raw) and probably bigger grip for bigger hands... the rest goes towards E-M1

[GLJ]

GH4 has... electronic rolling shutter for stills (but that means 10bit raw)

Please could you provide evidence to back up that statement.

[Vladimirovich]

Please could you provide evidence to back up that statement.

http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/ds8/c3/IS00006AE.pdf

PS: 12bit container for 10bit raw.

[Remo Nonaz]

Nigel: I'm kind of in the same place you are - still liking the GH2 and wondering if there is a worthwhile upgrade. I like some of the newer features like focus peaking and IBS in the Olympus cameras. But still, I can't justify to cost of an upgrade just for the IQ between a GH4 or Olympus OM1 - I don't think it is dramatically better.

[Vladimirovich]

Nigel: I'm kind of in the same place you are - still liking the GH2 and wondering if there is a worthwhile upgrade. I like some of the newer features like focus peaking and IBS in the Olympus cameras. But still, I can't justify to cost of an upgrade just for the IQ between a GH4 or Olympus OM1 - I don't think it is dramatically better.

I used to own GH2, GH3 and E-M1... I absolutely do recommend that if your budget allows to change from GH2 to E-M1 (now that costwise E-M1 is quite more affordable than GH4).

the only 3 advantages that GH2 has

1) you have it already
2) true multi-aspect sensor
3) might still be better video camera than E-M1 (using firmware hacks)

as for being dramatically better... again - check the shutter shock illustration (see the link above), better viewfinder, solid 1 stop increase in DR, better ergonomics, x-sync and optical remote TTL control, blinkies (might be used to detect raw clipping preshot), IBIS or OIS vs just OIS, etc... GH2 is 2 generations old camera

[GLJ]

http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/ds8/c3/IS00006AE.pdf

PS: 12bit container for 10bit raw.

Hmmm. I'm not convinced you can make that assumption on just reading that brief spec sheet.
It tells you there is indeed a 10bit electronic readout mode that does 22.5 fps max
But above that it specifies not only a 10 bit mode @ 22.5fps, but also a 12bit mode @ 14.7 fps

How do you know its only the 10bit mode available, and they aren't just quoting that one to show the best framerate figures?

[Vladimirovich]

Hmmm. I'm not convinced you can make that assumption on just reading that brief spec sheet.

you can't jump over your head - so you can't implement rolling shutter better than your sensor does allow

But above that it specifies not only a 10 bit mode @ 22.5fps, but also a 12bit mode @ 14.7 fps

that only says that data bus ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-voltage_differential_signaling ) can dump (has throughput) data off sensor @ 14.7fps in 12bit mode... that's it, and for a rolling shutter is specifially says how it works.

How do you know its only the 10bit mode available, and they aren't just quoting that one to show the best framerate figures?

get rawdigger, shot a raw w/ electronic shutter and see gaps in histogram vs raw with mechanical shutter

[GLJ]

Any thoughts?

Well we appear to have a boatload of Oly fanboys around here, so I'll throw in my counter tuppenceworth (and as a purchaser of  the Gh2/Gh3/EM5/EM1)

The GH3 and EM5 probably share the same sensor. So in terms of ultimate still quality, there isn't anything in it - except if you shoot in the dangerous shutter shock speeds, in which case its a slam dunk for the GH5 because of the totally electronic shutter mode. I still run into issues with my EM5 occasionally, even shooting with the hideously unsettling 1/8th of a sec delay mode on all the time.

The GX7 seems to be right up there as well with virtually identical IQ to the GH3 and EM5, and I don't think the EM1 really improved on the IQ of those either.
I would say its a case of choose the camera from any of those based on preference, features and ease of use rather than any difference in IQ.
And if you're shooting base ISO only, the gap between those and the GH2 isn't THAT great. It does seem to be the higher ISOs where the newer sensors show less noise, especially chroma. If I'm shooting landscapes, I generally still gravitate to the GH2 much of the time as I like the multi aspect sensor, and that camera doesn't seem to exhibit shutter shock with the lenses I use - maybe because its an older, slower mechanism.

Note - if you're used to the panasonic menu's you won't have too much trouble sticking with the newer Panny cameras, but this might not be the case with Oly. Many people really despair with the way Oly do some things. You need to do your research on what would bug YOU.

[Vladimirovich]

The GH3 and EM5 probably share the same sensor. So in terms of ultimate still quality, there isn't anything in it

GH3 has a thicker AA filter again

And if you're shooting base ISO only, the gap between those and the GH2 isn't THAT great.

it is in deep shadows (=DR)... naturally not in S/N above deep shadows

that camera doesn't seem to exhibit shutter shock with the lenses I use - maybe because its an older, slower mechanism.

x-sync = 1/160 vs x-sync = 1/320 (official ratings)... so GH2 has 4 times less energy from shutter blades impact to deal with (and probably no IBIS inside helps too)

[GLJ]

that only says that data bus ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-voltage_differential_signaling ) can dump (has throughput) data off sensor @ 14.7fps in 12bit mode... that's it, and for a rolling shutter is specifially says how it works.

No, it specifically gives specifications for ONE rolling shutter MODE. It isn't clear whether that is the ONLY mode they allow.

get rawdigger, shot a raw w/ electronic shutter and see gaps in histogram vs raw with mechanical shutter

To clarify here - I'm not saying I know that you're wrong, because I don't know one way or the other. I just would find it strange if the top end camera did NOT allow a 12 bit stills mode while doing electronic shuttering.
What I'm looking for is conclusive proof, because if it does prove to be the case, then its highly unlikley I'm going to buy a GH4, and it might push me to get another GH3 while the rebates are on. But I'd like to know for sure, and I'm still not seeing conclusive evidence presented.

[GLJ]

GH3 has a thicker AA filter again

The GH3 itself can still exhibit moire in stills. its not as if its got a strong AA filter! I've shot the GH3 and EM5/1 side by side with the same type of lens and there is VERY little in it.
Many would also argue that a too weak AA filter is actually detrimental to IQ!!

it is in deep shadows (=DR)... naturally not in S/N above deep shadows

The GH2 is certainly a little noisier in the shadows, but its not a million miles away, and they did a good job in sorting out the banding as well compared to the earlier sensors.
There won't be as big a jump going from a GH2 to anything new, compared to going to the GH2 in the first place from one of the 12MP sensors. Not at base ISO shooting anyway.

[Vladimirovich]

No, it specifically gives specifications for ONE rolling shutter MODE. It isn't clear whether that is the ONLY mode they allow.

your assumption that Panasonic in marketing specs decided to omit a higher bit resolution rolling shutter mode does not seem to be right - having 2 different modes in marketing material is always better than having just one mode (just like they did with output - they listed what is possible in 12bit and what is possible in 10bit) ... so we can safely assume that there is no rolling shutter mode where readout is done w/ on die ADCs operating in 12bit mode...

To clarify here - I'm not saying I know that you're wrong, because I don't know one way or the other. I just would find it strange if the top end camera did NOT allow a 12 bit stills mode while doing electronic shuttering.

because it is essential to have as fast whole frame readout as possible = 10bit mode for ADCs instead of 12bit mode... and video mode (and CDAF/LV/EVF probably) do not require 12bit (not enough bus throughput to dump 12bit raw @ 4K/30fps)

What I'm looking for is conclusive proof

rawdigger shall show you then... you shall be able to detect the difference between 10bit data in 12bit container and honest 12bit

[Vladimirovich]

I've shot the GH3 and EM5/1 side by side with the same type of lens and there is VERY little in it.

shutter shock for example is a good AA filter alone... but it is natural for a video oriented camera to have a thicker AA filter... I do not have E-M5, but the difference moire-wise between GH3 (which I had) and E-M1 (w/o AA filter) is quite clear

Many would also argue that a too weak AA filter is actually detrimental to IQ!!

I just noted that they have different strength AA... the rest is up to a owner

The GH2 is certainly a little noisier in the shadows, but its not a million miles away

no, just 1+ stop... that is noticeable

and they did a good job in sorting out the banding as well compared to the earlier sensors.
There won't be as big a jump going from a GH2 to anything new, compared to going to the GH2 in the first place from one of the 12MP sensors. Not at base ISO shooting anyway.

well, there was GH1 w/ 14mp mutli-aspect sensor, not only cameras w/ 12mp regular sized sensors

[stever]

I have the GX7 for street and travel.  Although I love the electronic shutter, I really think the E-M1 with the first curtain shutter and sensor stabilization is the best all-round choice for a stills camera.

On the other hand, with the zoom lenses you're using I'm not sure how much improvement you'll see - but should definitely notice a difference with the 20mm and even enjoy it more with the Oly stabilization.  

[Vladimirovich]

but should definitely notice a difference with the 20mm and even enjoy it more with the Oly stabilization.  

but then wasn't there some banding (EMI) issues w/ Olympus cameras and P20/1.7 @ high gains (hight ISOs) ?

[NigelC]

Some useful information - thanks. Of course I forgot about GX7 - that's got a lot going for it. Couple of other considerations are that I once had an Olympus 8080; if their menus haven't progressed a lot since then that would definitely put me off. And yes the zooms put a ceiling on ultimate performance so perhaps my most important requirement is to keep the feature set of the GH2 with better noise performance. Thinking about it, the format change is something I use a lot; obviously you can crop later but then you lose a bit of sensor area. So maybe I should stick with the GH2 and concentrate on optimal techniques for noise reduction because "jack of all trades" to me includes low light use (of course indoors the GH2/20mm is a nice discrete combination).

[Vladimirovich]

So maybe I should stick with the GH2 and concentrate on optimal techniques for noise reduction because "jack of all trades" to me includes low light use (of course indoors the GH2/20mm is a nice discrete combination).

low light will be forcing you to underexpose (vs optimal sensor saturation) in many cases because for example of exposure time consideration - so better readout noise is essential and so new generation of sensors (be it from Sony - like EM5/GH3 or Panasonic - like EM1/GH4) are helpful (as deep shadows will be pushed in raw conversion or using higher gains /aka dialing higher ISO on camera/ pre exposure)... so unless the budget is an issue I'd move on to a new camera...