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mstevensphoto

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Help me decide please
« on: March 17, 2014, 08:43:43 am »

Hi folks, I'm hoping some of you can help bring me a little clarity or at least add some things for me to think about.

I photograph families and children full time. Right now I use a 5d mk iii and am mostly happy with it. I am doing more and more large works(30x40 and larger) and keep eyeing a switch to medium format for a few reasons:
For one, I miss the unique feel of mf photos from my film days
I would like a little more file size and dynamic range available
There is a mf mistique for customers ( there is a real credibility bump in having a camera other than what they have)
I'm pretty happy with the 5d files up to 20x30, but would like to feel better about larger given the often close viewing distance of my work.

I am a little concerned that because of the moving nature of small children ill find myself burning through a camera faster than I want. In the 35mm platform it is not uncommon for me to take 200 or more shots and I really do not consider myself a machine gun shooter. I miss the mindfulness of film mf, but at the same time I've gotta get mom a pic of all three kids looking whilst being animated.

Here are my concerns: I must have an AF camera due to scaring on my corneas. I cand afford a new h5d system because the cost vs ability to earn more isn't there. I'm not 100% sure that the output to large canvas or inkjet via my canon ipf8300 will really be that much better.

Can you share your touts on the mamiya 645 40mp bundle that I see on sale at $13k? I always liked my mamiya film gear, what is your real world experience with the AF and general usability and durability?
Without starting a flame war, can you give me some other considerations for do/don't switch?
What am I missing?

Many thanks in advance for helping me think this through.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 09:48:29 am »

First, if you haven't read enough posts here to know this, I'm openly biased towards Phase One backs – I work for a P1 dealer.

The big thing that jumps out of your post is focus. I can't tell you if you'll find the focus on any medium format system satisfactory or not. Then again, neither can anyone else. You're absolutely, positively going to have to do a real shoot (or at least one that comes as close to "real" as practical) with a medium format system to find that out. The DF+ and H4D/H4X both have very good autofocus systems that are greatly improved on their earlier brethren (from that point of view you need to weight the opinion of responses about the H1/H2/AF or DF (non plus) bodies), but fast moving kids are definitely challenging subjects for AF-only shooting. I think it will depend a lot on your preference for how wide open you wish to shoot and how much lighting you have in your studio environment. If you have a brightly lit studio and don't need to shoot wide-open (at least for the fast moving kids) then I think the AF on either system is good enough to warrant your own testing/evaluation. You're never going to track a child running around the set wide open with any meaningful hit rate with any medium format system like you could with a Canon and a fast prime and servo tracking. But to quickly move your body to compose for a shot, autofocus, and snap off a few frames in a few seconds... yes you can do that (in my experience).

The rest of the issues are much easier; here are some responses I don't think anyone on this board will disagree with:
- yes it will print large images like 30x40 with better quality than a 5D as far as tonality, detail, texture go (I can send you some of my Credo 40 raw files to print as your own practical testing if you'd like)
- dynamic range is an improvement over your 5D3 (though in-studio dynamic range isn't a huge deal as you should be able to simply add more fill light as needed in most scenarios)

I'd also argue the following more subjective points:
- You'll love skin color from the Credo compared to your 5D3. It will look better and require less post processing tweaking to get there.
- You'll love the look of the Schneider LS lenses; they are sharp even wide open, and fall off nicely
- You'll like using the larger viewfinder of the DF+ compared to your Canon, especially with your damaged eye
- You'll love, for the limited amount of location/environmental portraiture I see on your website the ability to sync at any speed (up to 1/1600th with the Schneider leaf shutter lenses).

Things you didn't ask about but I think are very important:
- tethering via USB3 or FW800 is very fast, so if you already shoot tethered or want to reserve that possibility you'll be quite happy; the cable is deeply recessed and doesn't pop out accidentally very easily
- You'll enjoy having the camera you want/lust-after for the work that you do rather than settling for something else. This can have a non-logical-but-nevertheless-true-because-we-aren't-creatures-of-pure-logic impact on your shooting style and confidence. I don't know for sure that clients notice or care what camera you use - I get the argument and I think it does apply some of the time with some clients. But I am quite confident you will notice. It's nice to work with tools you love (which is why it's even more important you get to do a real test with the gear to make sure it is a tool you love).

So I'd get your hands on one and see what it does for you. If you love the final result, find the autofocus is not going to meaningfully hold you back, and you enjoy the shooting process - do it. If not, do something else (or do nothing).
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 09:55:59 am by Doug Peterson »
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MrSmith

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 09:50:24 am »

I would look at:

Cost
Ease of use
Results

Only 2 systems would tick all 3 (All in IMHO) a d800 or an A7r and it's excellent focus peaking, I'm sure an MFD system will give you excellent results some of the time (good light and the ones you get in focus) but the ease of use and costs would make me look elsewhere for that kind of photography unless it was all studio based.
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jerome_m

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2014, 10:31:27 am »

I'm not 100% sure that the output to large canvas or inkjet via my canon ipf8300 will really be that much better.

ipf8300 is the operating word here: at the size that printer is able to output, the difference between MF and your Canon will show. Maybe less on canvas, but on paper it will show. Definitely.

Now, as you realised, MF cameras have a slow AF system and shoot about 1 frame a second max. Maybe you rent one for a day or two to find out.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2014, 11:28:10 am »

I shoot with an Leaf Aptus 12R. Currently finishing up a corporate clothing catalogue. Will shoot about 500 to 1000 images of clothing on models in a day. That goes on for days. I have been shooting like this for years. Before the 12R I used the Aptus 7.

images are not used very big but I end up having to process about 100 images a day for final use. The accuracy of the colours off the MFDB is so good it makes my post production much quicker. I output the files to the size I need on the day.

I have burnt through shutters and flash tubes over the years but have not had an Aptus fail on me. Hope I don't jinx myself now.
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eronald

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2014, 12:19:34 pm »

Hi,

 You have 240 posts to your name here, so you know the general feeling of the forum. I think we all agree that
 - MF products are all reliable, all work well in good light, superb look, easy retouch, big prints, cameras look impressive, and better dealers like Doug Peterson and Steve Hendrix really stand behind their product and offer a good choice of used equipment.
 - MF cameras are considerably slower to focus than dSLRS, and the old generation CCD sensors need considerably more light to show their best. Shooting speed and frame rate is much slower than a top dSLR - you really need to catch the moment.

From there, I think you can figure out that MF for children probably makes sense only in a very constrained studio setting. I guess renting a camera for a couple of days is a good way, maybe the only reasonable way to find out whether it will work for you. You are using one of the best and most flexible dSLRs ever made, combining file quality with good Hi-ISO and focus speed, any attempt to get better quality will mean a better lit carefully constructed  workflow.

Edmund


Hi folks, I'm hoping some of you can help bring me a little clarity or at least add some things for me to think about.

I photograph families and children full time. Right now I use a 5d mk iii and am mostly happy with it. I am doing more and more large works(30x40 and larger) and keep eyeing a switch to medium format for a few reasons:
For one, I miss the unique feel of mf photos from my film days
I would like a little more file size and dynamic range available
There is a mf mistique for customers ( there is a real credibility bump in having a camera other than what they have)
I'm pretty happy with the 5d files up to 20x30, but would like to feel better about larger given the often close viewing distance of my work.

I am a little concerned that because of the moving nature of small children ill find myself burning through a camera faster than I want. In the 35mm platform it is not uncommon for me to take 200 or more shots and I really do not consider myself a machine gun shooter. I miss the mindfulness of film mf, but at the same time I've gotta get mom a pic of all three kids looking whilst being animated.

Here are my concerns: I must have an AF camera due to scaring on my corneas. I cand afford a new h5d system because the cost vs ability to earn more isn't there. I'm not 100% sure that the output to large canvas or inkjet via my canon ipf8300 will really be that much better.

Can you share your touts on the mamiya 645 40mp bundle that I see on sale at $13k? I always liked my mamiya film gear, what is your real world experience with the AF and general usability and durability?
Without starting a flame war, can you give me some other considerations for do/don't switch?
What am I missing?

Many thanks in advance for helping me think this through.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 12:58:54 pm by eronald »
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2014, 02:08:30 pm »

Actually it's very simple:

Rent and try !

No one of us - experienced or unexperienced will be able to answer your question.
Think about investing in a system worth a great car and buying without driving is ... well ... it just is ...

my € 0.02

Cheers
~Chris

sbernthal

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2014, 02:41:50 pm »

What you're describing is a very dynamic and auto focus centric workflow.
IMO you will not be happy with any MFD.
Spare yourself the wasteful expense, and buy a 1Dx.
It will be much better than your 5D3.
Canon will come up with a higher resolution 1D soon enough.
With a 1Dx you will not miss any shots and not feel limited.
The output is considerably better than 5D.
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Ken R

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2014, 04:01:05 pm »

For one, I miss the unique feel of mf photos from my film days
I would like a little more file size and dynamic range available
There is a mf mistique for customers ( there is a real credibility bump in having a camera other than what they have)
I'm pretty happy with the 5d files up to 20x30, but would like to feel better about larger given the often close viewing distance of my work.

Before reading my comments know that I own a PhaseOne IQ160 and use it on a Hasselblad H1 when shooting people and an Arca RM3Di for landscapes. I also use a Canon 5D3 for a lot of my work. I currently own a 1DS3 and a 5D3 and have used Canon DSLRs for about 10 years. I have used other digital cameras from Nikon and Fuji.

With that out of the way, I love the look of the IQ160 files. They are definitely much more "film like" than any DSLR I have ever used but have the clean "digital" look. They take much more work in post production to get the results I want when working with mixed light but they give me MUCH more options due to the file's depth and IMHO greater color differentiation and sensitivity it seems.

The IQ160 file obviously has a LOT more file size and dynamic range than any Canon ever made. The difference is NOT subtle. With a Credo 40 / IQ140 you get a similar sensor (so color and dynamic range should be similar to the IQ160) but in a smaller sensor size and less resolution (still way more than any Canon and similar to a Nikon D800E/A7R). The Credo files have a different look in regards to color due to different profiles but depth, color differentiation / sensitivity should be similar.

I love the sensor size of the IQ160. It really helps me get that shallower dof / medium format look I want. Not as nice as what I got with my Pentax 6x7's but good enough. With the smaller Credo 40 / IQ140 sensor you still get some of that but not as much.

One thing I really like about the large MF sensor is the viewfinder. Medium format optical viewfinders are just significantly larger than any VF in any DSLR.The 4:3 aspect ratio is also something different a lot of people, including myself, prefer.

Regarding the MF mystique?. Well, Ive had some customers notice the camera Im using and positively comment on it but its effect is minor. Much more important is the quality of the service you provide to the clients. Quality, Style, Speed; all Vs. Cost.

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mstevensphoto

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 10:42:41 pm »

Those are generally awesome and helpful replies to what I realize are subjective questions. Thanks! I'm a big word of mouth person so I always like to aggregate other professionals feelings and experiences.

On focus, perhaps I can elaborate more. Generally we're not talking running through the studio(that makes me nuts) I ultimately have about as many watt seconds of light as I want with more or fewer mono lights/packs added...I do try to avoid big blinding flashes that startle, esp little munchkins and when the family dog joins. A typical setup is one or two wiggly kids in moms lap and ill ask mom to make them laugh, we're not running but there is a lot of little movement. I'm good at capturing the moment so one frame a second isn't a hang up to me. But even at f8 the problem is anyone moving forward of the focus point w/o the camera tracking because of course there's less tolerance for that. My 5d3 ( which I find superior to the 1dx in every respect except burst speed) gives my the ability to go from 0 to in focus photo w/o missing the moment. I used to love my eos3 because I could have it at my side and pick up and press to get an in focus shot of a ski jumper in an instant. The 5d3 is the first digital of significant resolution (1ds was lovely but made small noisy files) where I can see an unplanned moment and react and know it will be in focus 95% of the time, even with super shallow DOF - I almost had crying fits with the 5d2 trying to accomplish the same thing.

I do love to shoot sentimental shots at 2.8 and need to know that if I start on an eye ill have it in focus.
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eronald

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2014, 10:55:32 pm »

Pro MF cameras don't have a bunch of focus points spread out all over the field like 35mm prosumer cams, and they don't track as beautifully either. So tracking focus and recompose is not going to happen in the same way as a dSLR. If you can point the camera at an eye wait a beat and depress the shutter, eye in center of frame, you will get a focused image if your studio is well lit enough to allow the camera to track the centered eye. If you hold the focus button while you recompose, AFAIK only one camera on the market will reset the focus in the correct way, and that is the latest Hasselblad series, H4 and H5 which have a gadget called "True Focus".

Modern SLRs have extraordinary focus abilities; the MF cameras of today do not have even the abilities as my (your) 1Ds of 10 years ago. But the files really are much more beautiful :)

Frankly, I would get one of the fast Canon lenses (35/1.4, 85/1.2, 135/2), clip it on the Canon and enjoy the sparkle. You won't have the gorgeous huge files, but you'll have much of the MF look with reliable focus and your existing setup.

But don't listen to me - just rent an MF setup, and do your own tests. The two dealers who post here, Doug Peterson and Steve Hendrix are straight shooters. Doug sells mainly Phase One gear, and Steve is I believe agnostic, so he can sell you a Phase, a Hassy or a Leica.

Edmund


I do love to shoot sentimental shots at 2.8 and need to know that if I start on an eye ill have it in focus.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 11:01:48 pm by eronald »
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synn

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2014, 11:01:23 pm »

Hi folks, I'm hoping some of you can help bring me a little clarity or at least add some things for me to think about.

I photograph families and children full time. Right now I use a 5d mk iii and am mostly happy with it. I am doing more and more large works(30x40 and larger) and keep eyeing a switch to medium format for a few reasons:
For one, I miss the unique feel of mf photos from my film days
I would like a little more file size and dynamic range available
There is a mf mistique for customers ( there is a real credibility bump in having a camera other than what they have)
I'm pretty happy with the 5d files up to 20x30, but would like to feel better about larger given the often close viewing distance of my work.

I am a little concerned that because of the moving nature of small children ill find myself burning through a camera faster than I want. In the 35mm platform it is not uncommon for me to take 200 or more shots and I really do not consider myself a machine gun shooter. I miss the mindfulness of film mf, but at the same time I've gotta get mom a pic of all three kids looking whilst being animated.

Here are my concerns: I must have an AF camera due to scaring on my corneas. I cand afford a new h5d system because the cost vs ability to earn more isn't there. I'm not 100% sure that the output to large canvas or inkjet via my canon ipf8300 will really be that much better.

Can you share your touts on the mamiya 645 40mp bundle that I see on sale at $13k? I always liked my mamiya film gear, what is your real world experience with the AF and general usability and durability?
Without starting a flame war, can you give me some other considerations for do/don't switch?
What am I missing?

Many thanks in advance for helping me think this through.

I have that exact kit and I shoot people with it.

The files are a bazillion times better than those from a Canon. You'll love the out of the box skintones (If you process in Capture One) and the latitude they offer.

The AF will be slower than a 5D III, but not overly so. Focus and re-compose works fine for my needs (I don't use lenses wide open for my work. I am at least at f/5.6). The focus is very accurate, but won't work in super low light conditions like a DSLR would. I keep modeling lamps on for this reason.

The back is fast enough to offer you a smooth cadence while shooting. I find that 1 FPS is a nice tempo for shooting people under strobes and the back never slows down to buffer.

The viewfinder is eons better than any 35mm DSLR.

Enough talk. Here's what you can expect in terms of skintones.

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eronald

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2014, 11:17:56 pm »

And here is what you get (at home)  if you use available light and a fast Canon prime on an active kid.

Spot on focus is easy, the camera tracks, depth of field is dreamy, but skin tones are nowhere as beautiful as with Synn's Phase back. This is high ISO, I would expect much better results (eye detail, hair) with more light/speed, ie. strobe.

Edmund

PS. always happy to trot out a picture of my favorite hyperactive model :)
PPS you will gain in resolution with a Canon of you use Canon's DPP software. One class camera better.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 11:39:32 pm by eronald »
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Joe Towner

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2014, 12:45:21 pm »

Mark,

You seem to be in Denver, DT has/had a presence in your town.  Go spend time with them, see if you can schedule a demo in your studio and try shooting.  There are a lot of options on the cost sensitive side, so let me gently run through them:

- if you are just looking for more dots, try the A7r with the adapter for your existing glass
- check out the used Pentax 645D options - you'll get more than a few lenses and still have the allure of MF
- for about the same as the new kit price, there are lots of options on the used backs from Phase/Leaf - but get the DF+
- add in the CPO options from Hasselblad (H4D-50 back/body is $12k right now)
- or for a few thousand more you can get into the 56mp Aptus II-10 or a 60mp P65+
- finally, the rumor chatter around the Pentax 645D II may give you 3 fps in a MF kit

Yea, lots of options, and some are time or inventory dependent.  I personally believe that 40mp is a bad new back purchase right now, since you have options going back to the P40+/P45+ as a used back.  40mp may cover your needs for now, but how long until you want more dots?  Personally, I had the option of the H4D-40 or the H4D-50, with ~$2,500 in price difference, and that extra 10mp is part of what I use to separate from someone shooting a 36mp Nikon/Sony.
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sbernthal

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Re: Help me decide please
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 03:17:31 am »

The 5d3 is the first digital of significant resolution (1ds was lovely but made small noisy files) where I can see an unplanned moment and react and know it will be in focus 95% of the time, even with super shallow DOF - I almost had crying fits with the 5d2 trying to accomplish the same thing.

I do love to shoot sentimental shots at 2.8 and need to know that if I start on an eye ill have it in focus.

You are iterating again how fast accurate focus is important to you.
If 5D3 gives you 95% in focus, then 1Dx will give you more than 99%.
If you want your camera to track fast moving objects, you will get very low in focus percentages with any MFD.
With Canon you also have the 85L and 50L which will give you beautiful results for your material, which can't really be optically matched by any MF lens I know.
If you don't like Canon colors, then you have the D800.
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