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Author Topic: DxO: The New Leica S test  (Read 38521 times)

eronald

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #120 on: March 19, 2014, 03:19:51 pm »

Your right and everyone would like a 645 d or d2 at under 10 grand with a large lens set that didn't give buyers remorse.

The problem is in cameraland, there is always a catch.

The Pentax, good jpegs, great screen, good viewfinder, legacy lenses.   Also small buffer, limited and expensive newer lenses, doesn't really tether that well and unless you want to search out older lenses and find the right combination, at the end of the day you don't save huge with Pentax newer lenses.  The biggest issue with Pentax is transparency.  All of their plans seem to come at a rumor bases.

Last year I spoke to the largest specialty Pentax dealer in the East Coast and he was selling off all his 645's at a discount, saying Pentax will move to full frame 35mm.  We'll so far that didn't happen and I don't think Pentax cares that much about professionals. That's kind of a shame because most people rave about the pentax aps cameras, but all of this is just a guess.

I assume they built the 645d for the Japanese market that shoots scenics and flowers and previously did so with film.  For them, the 645d was perfect, but it never seemed that Pentax ever planned on making a large worldwide push.  

You see this with all makers, searching out that niche that they can exploit.   The new phase cmos camera seems to be a push towards wedding and event photographers.   Personally I assume that shipped has sailed to high end 35mm cameras, or even the 5d2 set, but Phase is smart and that seems to be a market they found open for medium format, though at $35,000 I have to wonder.

Basically in all things in life, there really is no free lunch.

IMO

BC

J,

 Yes, there have been reports that the 645D has had good domestic success; when in Japan, I was very surprised to discover to what extent the japanese are dedicated to photography as a hobby and pastime. There was also a big "marriage" market there for set-piece imagery, as in Korea; this was owned by Fuji who supplied everything from special cameras (think Fuji S5 with the sensor tailored for the highlights in the bride's dress), dyesub printers etc. I don't know who has this market now.

Now, when Phase tries to go into events, I have my doubts - I do know one or two things first hand about that side of photography, and it is all about focus, speed, batteries, card capacity, usable zoom lenses. I believe that in studio shooting -set me right- the comp won't run out of power or storage, you can stop and change lenses if you want to, but in the field after an hour or two every resource you have including your own arm strength is exhausted, every pause eg. to change cards is a lost image, hitting the buffer is a nightmare, often your assistant cannot get to you, you need to move with the crowd, so you're stuck with whatever equipment you have in your hands or hanging off your shoulders. Sure, you can say "I will switch to an SLR for anything unpredictable", but I don't many guys who are willing to pay for Phase, bring Phase to an event, and be happy having to switch to Canon because the stage lighting has cut out.

I know that when I did the fashion shows, big houses like Dior had theatre-grade lighting and choreographed photo positions, the models would strut predictably and hit their marks with the precision of Prussian military and the audience would be photographers, press and trade buyers. But my clients sent me to do the minor shows, eg. houses like Givenchy or couture specialists like Elie Saab or Martin Margiela who do their business in large part with rich individuals. And there improvised lighting, and strange buildings mixed the preparations, proceedings and wind-down into a randomly lit and often quite entertaining teenager's party.

Edmund



 
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 07:13:36 pm by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #121 on: March 19, 2014, 04:07:35 pm »

Hi,

Just to put things into a bit perspective:

China 2 Billion customers
India 1.5 Billion customers and catching up
US 0.3 Billion custumers
EU 0.4 Billion customers

Who do you think matters most?

Of course, there are differences, but I am pretty sure that the centre of gravity in the photographic industry moves to the east.

Best regards
Erik


Your right and everyone would like a 645 d or d2 at under 10 grand with a large lens set that didn't give buyers remorse.

The problem is in cameraland, there is always a catch.

The Pentax, good jpegs, great screen, good viewfinder, legacy lenses.   Also small buffer, limited and expensive newer lenses, doesn't really tether that well and unless you want to search out older lenses and find the right combination, at the end of the day you don't save huge with Pentax newer lenses.  The biggest issue with Pentax is transparency.  All of their plans seem to come at a rumor bases.

Last year I spoke to the largest specialty Pentax dealer in the East Coast and he was selling off all his 645's at a discount, saying Pentax will move to full frame 35mm.  We'll so far that didn't happen and I don't think Pentax cares that much about professionals. That's kind of a shame because most people rave about the pentax aps cameras, but all of this is just a guess.

I assume they built the 645d for the Japanese market that shoots scenics and flowers and previously did so with film.  For them, the 645d was perfect, but it never seemed that Pentax ever planned on making a large worldwide push.  

You see this with all makers, searching out that niche that they can exploit.   The new phase cmos camera seems to be a push towards wedding and event photographers.   Personally I assume that shipped has sailed to high end 35mm cameras, or even the 5d2 set, but Phase is smart and that seems to be a market they found open for medium format, though at $35,000 I have to wonder.

Basically in all things in life, there really is no free lunch.

IMO

BC
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telyt

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #122 on: March 19, 2014, 06:20:19 pm »

What disturbs me in this discussion is that essentially there is no *technical* difference between the 645D and the S2.

As I figure it the lens mount is a big technical difference.
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synn

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #123 on: March 19, 2014, 06:46:45 pm »

Yeah, their trade in is about as much as the used Pentax digital MF body value. Very fair - ideal for people wanting to sell their Pentax 645D :)

What disturbs me in this discussion is that essentially there is no *technical* difference between the 645D and the S2.

Kudos to Leica for opting out of the huge price cartel and making a camera that works almost like an SLR, but if there is to be hope for MF we still need some more realistically priced options.

Edmund

that discount is the same as the deal offered on the credo 40 now. Without any trade ins. Comes with a great lens too.

the aptus II 5 kit has been going for 4 figures for ages now. Again,without trade ins.

I have no problems with leica getting credit for a good marketing move but come on now. Not every other option in the market costs 30grand.
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peterv

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #124 on: March 19, 2014, 08:24:13 pm »

Not 30 but 16-17 grand, plus a $100 DLSR for trade-in.
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Herbc

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #125 on: March 20, 2014, 09:26:16 am »

I got the Sony 5 inch (diagonal) external viewfinder which I use on my D800E for live view, and manual focusing is a great deal better, in addition, since it mounts on the flash shoe, you can use it for waist level shooting, something I favor in my landscape work.
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bcooter

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #126 on: March 20, 2014, 07:31:37 pm »

I hate to say it but a rival blog is what made me buy an S2

http://newcameranews.com/2014/03/15/leicanalysis-what-makes-a-leica-photo-special/

See for yourself and tell me your not impressed.

IMO

BC
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JohnBrew

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #127 on: March 20, 2014, 08:42:27 pm »

Ha, ha. Too funny.

synn

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #128 on: March 20, 2014, 09:11:08 pm »

I hate to say it but a rival blog is what made me buy an S2

http://newcameranews.com/2014/03/15/leicanalysis-what-makes-a-leica-photo-special/

See for yourself and tell me your not impressed.

IMO

BC

OK, I'm sold.
Do they accept Amex?
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JV

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #129 on: March 20, 2014, 11:09:25 pm »

Many would say an M8 or M9 is over-priced and under-specified

I read today that it was actually Leica that invented and first patented autofocus… never would have guessed that...
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 11:11:54 pm by JV »
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Telecaster

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #130 on: March 20, 2014, 11:25:03 pm »

Now that's the gnat's nads! Exhibit #1: attached pic of Der Leica für die Menschen.

 :D

-Dave-
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Chris Livsey

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #131 on: March 21, 2014, 06:45:29 am »

Hi,

Just to put things into a bit perspective:

China 2 Billion customers
India 1.5 Billion customers and catching up
US 0.3 Billion custumers
EU 0.4 Billion customers

Who do you think matters most?
Erik

Don't you need to mix those figures with disposable income to reach a meaningful "customer" number?
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telyt

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #132 on: March 21, 2014, 12:56:49 pm »

I read today that it was actually Leica that invented and first patented autofocus… never would have guessed that...

A little dated, as we know now Leica cancelled the R system rather than make an autofocus R, but sheds a little light on the original Leitz AF system:

http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2012/03/leitz-correfot-autofocus-system.html
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #133 on: March 21, 2014, 09:42:18 pm »

Yes,

But many Chinese, Indians and Russians are wealthy, and those economies develop at a rapid rate. Also, those markets are less saturated and will stay so for a long time as more and more citisens enter middle class.

GDP in China is third behind USA and EU, right now, they passed Japan three years ago. So China is a bigger market (with regard to purchasing power) than any other country in the world, except the US. India is 4-th, followed by Japan and Germany.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html?countryname=China&countrycode=ch&regionCode=eas&rank=3#ch

India seems to struggle with their economy, but they have great engineers and scientists and sustainable population growth.

If you buy a computer from  say Dell, everything in it will come from China, except the hard disk which normally comes from Thailand. And much of the software is written in India.

Best regards
Erik

Don't you need to mix those figures with disposable income to reach a meaningful "customer" number?
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eronald

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #134 on: March 21, 2014, 10:14:25 pm »


If you buy a computer from  say Dell, everything in it will come from China, except the hard disk which normally comes from Thailand. And much of the software is written in India.


They used to say the Chinese make the computer, and Microsoft make the profit, but I think that is slowly becoming untrue.

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #135 on: March 22, 2014, 02:05:17 am »

Obviously, it is possible to make a great test without any chart or image. They still have a pie-chart, though.

Best regards
Erik


OK, I'm sold.
Do they accept Amex?
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synn

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #136 on: March 22, 2014, 03:05:30 am »

Erik, you have much to,learn about humor in the English language.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #137 on: March 22, 2014, 04:24:35 am »

Yes,

But many Chinese, Indians and Russians are wealthy, and those economies develop at a rapid rate. Also, those markets are less saturated and will stay so for a long time as more and more citisens enter middle class.

Erik


But  ;D isn't the danger (for the camera makers) the emerging market, which I agree is not DSLR saturated unlike the "developed" west, may miss that DSLR step and go to sophisticated phones for the connectivity? I agree the MFD market potential is there and it may be that niche does better, relatively, than the DSLR makers who have already seen compact sales plummet?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #138 on: March 22, 2014, 06:52:23 am »

Hi,

Preferences in the BRIC countries may be different from the traditional zones of trade, I don't know, but those markets cannot be ignored for sure. Many of the limited edition cameras end up in far east, AFAIK.

I don't think BRIC citizens are less demanding than say US. Phone cameras are limited by lens choices and sensor size. So I guess that sophisticated customers in search of image quality will always demand more complete cameras. But connectivity belongs to any camera.

Just a small example, two years ago I was shooting at Grand Teton National Park and met a young lady from Guangzhou (formerly know as Canton) in China. She worked in the export business, but started her own business to earn money for travel. She needed a camera for shooting her products, so she bought Canon 5DIII and 24-105/4LIS lens. Yes, she had an Iphone, too. Just an example of young people in an expanding economy.

I have seen a note that China sales are above 50% Leica's market, but could not confirm it: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134367

Best regards
Erik

But  ;D isn't the danger (for the camera makers) the emerging market, which I agree is not DSLR saturated unlike the "developed" west, may miss that DSLR step and go to sophisticated phones for the connectivity? I agree the MFD market potential is there and it may be that niche does better, relatively, than the DSLR makers who have already seen compact sales plummet?

« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 07:04:58 am by ErikKaffehr »
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eronald

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #139 on: March 22, 2014, 09:27:46 am »

Post deleted (because of lack of humor)

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 09:30:54 am by eronald »
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