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Author Topic: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both  (Read 32765 times)

Justan

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2014, 01:05:03 pm »

Sure, as noted elsewhere, I’m entering an experimenting phase.

But I don’t work with Timeless so can’t answer that.

shadowblade

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2014, 02:13:51 pm »

Sure, as noted elsewhere, I’m entering an experimenting phase.

But I don’t work with Timeless so can’t answer that.


Fair enough. Glamour II behaves much the same, in relation to what surfaces it does and doesn't like.

Out of interest, why are you sticking to Glamour II when Timeless is available, faster-drying and UV-protective? Is it for its self-levelling properties?
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Justan

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2014, 11:15:45 am »

G2 produces an excellent finish and mostly due to that I haven't seen a compelling reason to change to Timeless.

I would like something that dries quicker than G2 as i have to keep my studio heated for several days to insure that G2 completely and properly. Had some disasters early on when i didn't let it sit long enough.

shadowblade

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2014, 11:19:06 am »

G2 produces an excellent finish and mostly due to that I haven't seen a compelling reason to change to Timeless.

I would like something that dries quicker than G2 as i have to keep my studio heated for several days to insure that G2 completely and properly. Had some disasters early on when i didn't let it sit long enough.

Timeless dries in 20 minutes.
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Justan

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2014, 11:42:52 am »

Does it produce flawless results when applied with a roller?

Edit: What about toxic (or other) fumes? Does it dry fully enough in 20 minutes for further handling - trimming and gluing to gator?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 11:48:56 am by Justan »
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shadowblade

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2014, 12:08:09 pm »

Does it produce flawless results when applied with a roller?

Edit: What about toxic (or other) fumes? Does it dry fully enough in 20 minutes for further handling - trimming and gluing to gator?

It can, but spraying does the job much more easily.

No fumes.

I wouldn't trim and glue it after 20 minutes, but it's a lot faster than Glamour.
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shadowblade

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2014, 10:42:42 am »

By the way, did the rolls come with any information about whether you're supposed to use matte black or photo black with it?
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shadowblade

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2014, 02:10:23 pm »

I received 2 sample rolls but have not cracked them out of the shipping box just yet.

Tried them yet?
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Justan

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2014, 08:28:46 am »

^I will over the next few days. I have a monster of a show coming up and just ordered 3 gallons of goo (aka Glamour ii) and will use the samples along with other production.

The samples did not come with any instructions. With the HP I’ve never made a selection for the type of black I use. From what I read, matte is preferred for non glossy stock.

The media itself looks like cloth. One sample is a classic canvas weave and the other is akin to linen.

shadowblade

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2014, 09:28:22 am »

^I will over the next few days. I have a monster of a show coming up and just ordered 3 gallons of goo (aka Glamour ii) and will use the samples along with other production.

The samples did not come with any instructions. With the HP I’ve never made a selection for the type of black I use. From what I read, matte is preferred for non glossy stock.

The media itself looks like cloth. One sample is a classic canvas weave and the other is akin to linen.


Sounds great - I've only ever seen it after it's been sprayed, so I didn't know whether the base material was matte or gloss. Might have to try printing with both, and see if the matte ink rubs off or if the photo black gives weak blacks.
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samueljohnchia

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2014, 07:30:37 pm »

I've contacted Kernow Coatings about their Kernewek Fabrics but did not receive any reply. I learned through one of their ex-dealers that these fabrics are no longer manufactured.

This is the email that they sent him which he forwarded, sent 8 May 2014:

Quote
HI
 
Unfortunately we have now discontinued the manufacture of the Kernewek range.
 
Sorry
 
Kind Regards
Alison Dell
Kernow Coatings

This is terrible news to me. I'm pretty much completely fed up with Breathing Color and their deplorable canvas weave and seed problems. I wish there was a better alternative to their crappy products.
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shadowblade

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2014, 09:41:51 am »

Damn - need to find an alternative with equally-good longevity and no gesso primer!
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samueljohnchia

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2014, 07:45:08 pm »

Damn - need to find an alternative with equally-good longevity and no gesso primer!

I wonder why Freestyle Photographic Supplies still lists them 'in stock': http://www.freestylephoto.biz/search?q=Arista+Americana

Indeed, an alternative must be found.
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shadowblade

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2014, 10:04:41 am »

I wonder why Freestyle Photographic Supplies still lists them 'in stock': http://www.freestylephoto.biz/search?q=Arista+Americana

Indeed, an alternative must be found.

Alternatives exist:

http://www.explosionofcolors.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3_2

I'm not sure about their quality and longevity, though. The Kernewek fabric has been tested, and was found to be exceptionally long-lasting (even outlasting Lyve).
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MHMG

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2014, 04:58:57 pm »

Alternatives exist:

http://www.explosionofcolors.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3_2

I'm not sure about their quality and longevity, though. The Kernewek fabric has been tested, and was found to be exceptionally long-lasting (even outlasting Lyve).

I've seen samples. Similar "infusion" process as Kernewek, but unfortunately, tons of OBA included. Too bad about the Kernowek fabric line being discontinued. The one I will truly miss is the St. Ives. That was really special, and I've seen no other inkjet canvas I like nearly as much. I've been using it for a few years, and my clients (I don't advertise it, but I do custom printmaking for select clients) have stretched it with no cracking, coated it with Print Shield as an initial barrier, then rolled on aqueous acrylic coatings like ClearStar or Glamour II, and glued it to panels with simple PVA adhesives as well. Miracle Muck would also probably work great.

Kernow Coatings did not market the Kernewek line of inkjet printable fabrics very well.  Not many printmakers who run canvas knew about it. If a major player like Epson, Canson, or Hanemuhle had picked it up and rebadged it , I'm sure it would have sold really well. Such is life.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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shadowblade

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2014, 01:05:17 am »

I've seen samples. Similar "infusion" process as Kernewek, but unfortunately, tons of OBA included. Too bad about the Kernowek fabric line being discontinued. The one I will truly miss is the St. Ives. That was really special, and I've seen no other inkjet canvas I like nearly as much. I've been using it for a few years, and my clients (I don't advertise it, but I do custom printmaking for select clients) have stretched it with no cracking, coated it with Print Shield as an initial barrier, then rolled on aqueous acrylic coatings like ClearStar or Glamour II, and glued it to panels with simple PVA adhesives as well. Miracle Muck would also probably work great.

Kernow Coatings did not market the Kernewek line of inkjet printable fabrics very well.  Not many printmakers who run canvas knew about it. If a major player like Epson, Canson, or Hanemuhle had picked it up and rebadged it , I'm sure it would have sold really well. Such is life.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

The datasheets for the non-gesso canvases on the site specifically say "OBAs: No". Are they lying? Do they display the same fluorescence as OBA-loaded papers and canvases?

Even so, without knowing their longevity, I'd be hesitant to use them. Even a relative longevity test (i.e. not absolute values, but a rough test by putting it in a window for a few months next to samples printed on Lyve and other canvases and seeing which one fades more) would be useful.
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MHMG

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2014, 07:15:11 am »

The datasheets for the non-gesso canvases on the site specifically say "OBAs: No". Are they lying? Do they display the same fluorescence as OBA-loaded papers and canvases?

Even so, without knowing their longevity, I'd be hesitant to use them. Even a relative longevity test (i.e. not absolute values, but a rough test by putting it in a window for a few months next to samples printed on Lyve and other canvases and seeing which one fades more) would be useful.

The samples I received came from a colleague and not directly from the company. They were claimed to have no OBAs in the literature I looked at for the two specific sample types I received. It has been a while, so I can't recall the product names as they were rather cryptic SKU#s.  It's pretty common for media marketing folks not to double-check with the technical staff before writing the advertising copy. I'd thus stop short of the term "lying" and more diplomatically suggest the term "misinformed" :).

As for longevity tests, I decided not to test them because they had not come from the AaI&A membership, rather an industry colleague who was interested in potential distribution rights. Thus, there was a commercial agenda that would be unfair to support with Aardenburg print research funds donated by the AaI&A membership. Nor did the manufacturer seem interested in underwriting the tests at the time. Today, AaI&A doesn't take on fee-for-service contract testing anymore.  I started to go down that road, but I finally concluded it is too much of a conflict of interest with the open source end-user supported testing model AaI&A has offered over the last several years to the digital print making community. Regrettably, this open source community-based approach to longevity testing is also now on hold for lack of funds. I hope to start it up again if and when the printmaking community shows more interest. At this time, the interest is practically zero. Most folks think that pigmented inks solved all the longevity issues. That conclusion would be wrong, but it appears to be the prevailing sentiment.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Justan

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2014, 08:13:31 am »

I've contacted Kernow Coatings about their Kernewek Fabrics but did not receive any reply. I learned through one of their ex-dealers that these fabrics are no longer manufactured.

This is the email that they sent him which he forwarded, sent 8 May 2014:

This is terrible news to me. I'm pretty much completely fed up with Breathing Color and their deplorable canvas weave and seed problems. I wish there was a better alternative to their crappy products.

I contacted one of their distributors at freestylephoto.biz about this and asked them to verify if the St. Ives (aka Monument Valley) and Newlyn (aka Yosemite) media types were discontinued. I receive a reply back yesterday:

Quote
You information is partially correct.  We still have plenty of stock on hand of both types of media.
Kernow has temporarily suspended production until such time as there is more consumer interest in the product.  The coating resources necessary to do a full run does not currently match up to demand.

It has not been discontinued as such.  If there is need to produce an entire coating run, Kernow is more than happy to do so.

shadowblade

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2014, 08:19:20 am »

The samples I received came from a colleague and not directly from the company. They were claimed to have no OBAs in the literature I looked at for the two specific sample types I received. It has been a while, so I can't recall the product names as they were rather cryptic SKU#s.  It's pretty common for media marketing folks not to double-check with the technical staff before writing the advertising copy. I'd thus stop short of the term "lying" and more diplomatically suggest the term "misinformed" :).

As for longevity tests, I decided not to test them because they had not come from the AaI&A membership, rather an industry colleague who was interested in potential distribution rights. Thus, there was a commercial agenda that would be unfair to support with Aardenburg print research funds donated by the AaI&A membership. Nor did the manufacturer seem interested in underwriting the tests at the time. Today, AaI&A doesn't take on fee-for-service contract testing anymore.  I started to go down that road, but I finally concluded it is too much of a conflict of interest with the open source end-user supported testing model AaI&A has offered over the last several years to the digital print making community. Regrettably, this open source community-based approach to longevity testing is also now on hold for lack of funds. I hope to start it up again if and when the printmaking community shows more interest. At this time, the interest is practically zero. Most folks think that pigmented inks solved all the longevity issues. That conclusion would be wrong, but it appears to be the prevailing sentiment.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com


Might be worth getting a trial roll, then, and shining a UV lamp on it to see if it lights up. If it doesn't, then maybe follow it up with a window test against a sample of Lyve or other canvas/paper with known lightfastness, printed on the same printer, and seeing which one lasts longer.

Unfortunately, shipping the trial roll to Australia costs more than the roll itself - anyone in the US interested in taking a look at it to see if it is, indeed, OBA-free?

On another note - any idea how Silverada canvas holds up in terms of lightfastness, when properly sprayed with an aqueous varnish? That's another canvas I like. It's commonly quoted as about two-thirds of that of Lyve, but that's with sprayed Lyve vs uncoated Silverada (since Silverada doesn't strictly need to be coated). Might it not last just as long as Lyve with a proper coating?
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shadowblade

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Re: Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2014, 08:52:57 am »

I contacted one of their distributors at freestylephoto.biz about this and asked them to verify if the St. Ives (aka Monument Valley) and Newlyn (aka Yosemite) media types were discontinued. I receive a reply back yesterday:


That's great news. So there's plenty of it in stock, and capacity to make more if needed?

Better see how well this stuff works with aqueous varnish, then, and get the word out there! I know a lot of people have problems with cotton seeds in other canvases (apparently even including Lyve, which is otherwise the top-of-the-line canvas out there)

I'm not sure why manufacturers insist on coating inkjet canvas with gesso, anyway, apart from the fact that gesso is required for oil and acrylic paintings. It's not like printed canvases look painted anyhow, and it's not like gesso obscures the texture of the canvas significantly. It's just another layer that can crumble and crack as the canvas flexes, tightens and relaxes. Unless aqueous varnishes somehow penetrate through the gesso into the fibres themselves, stabilising both.
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