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Author Topic: A few questions about camera profiles  (Read 15413 times)

Fine_Art

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2014, 11:26:05 pm »

People might find the article starting on page 30 useful. It is about how your displays do things. Some of it is quite surprising.

Display Myths Shattered

BY DR. RAYMOND SONEIRA
CREATOR OF THE DISPLAYMATE TESTING SUITE

http://dl.maximumpc.com/Archives/MPC0710-web.pdf
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2014, 01:51:31 am »

Thanks!

Lot of good links giving insights!

Best regards
Erik

you are always using some selected base profile (that's how Adobe tries to prevent you from getting absolutely ugly results - and one of the reasone why hoi polloi is running around screaming how good they are in building dcp profiles with a sub $100 24 patch target using simple tools... unlike building non dcp profiles where you do not have hidden suspenders in most/all cases).


http://forums.adobe.com/message/1219195#1219195

http://forums.adobe.com/message/5198903#5198903

http://forums.adobe.com/message/3179876#3179876

http://forums.adobe.com/message/3395534#3395534

http://forums.adobe.com/message/3861785#3861785

 http://forums.adobe.com/message/5299746#5299746

http://forums.adobe.com/message/4706036#4706036

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=56863.msg461536#msg461536

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=30747.msg249068#msg249068
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles (Capture One ICC handling?)
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2014, 06:01:11 am »

Hi,

My understanding right now is that the ICC profiles used by Capture One are applied after conversion to an internal RGB colour space. So:

  • ICC profiles cannot address issues of raw conversion
  • The ICC profiles don't have a color transformation matrix (from sensor RGBG to CIE XYZ)
  • Generating an ICC profile from raw data requires knowledge of the conversion process in C1

Are the above statements correct?

Best regards
Erik
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Capture One internal Color Space?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2014, 06:02:45 am »

Hi,

Anyone knows what is the internal colour space in Capture One?

Best regards
Erik
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles (Capture One ICC handling?)
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2014, 07:17:30 am »

Hi,

My understanding right now is that the ICC profiles used by Capture One are applied after conversion to an internal RGB colour space.

Hi Erik,

No conversion, the R/G/B channel output of the sensor as quantized by the ADC is the input for CaptureOne, just like it is for all other Raw convertors. A profile is created based on the (maybe White balanced) RGB channel input, where known spectral input (Illuminant and XYZ coordinates) and resulting R/G/B channel output is characterized and calibrated. This is normal ICC input profile creation stuff.

Quote
So:

  • ICC profiles cannot address issues of raw conversion
  • The ICC profiles don't have a color transformation matrix (from sensor RGBG to CIE XYZ)
  • Generating an ICC profile from raw data requires knowledge of the conversion process in C1

Raw conversion only plays a special role in reconstructing per pixel color and luminosity. The R/G/B channel data for uniform patches of a given color are not changed by Raw conversion. What can be changed is the assumption of the Illuminant that was used for the exposure, and the relative channel amplification and black points which control White balancing. Some Raw formats use a scaling to some channels to achieve high ADU values that may help with data compression and other calculations, but the part of the response curve of silicon that is used by the ADC input is almost linear, so simple offset and multiplier schemes are common. Sony uses a non-linear encoding though (for highlight compression it progressively skips ADU values), as does Leica with a Gamma adjusted set of ADUs.

ICC Camera profiles do not use a simple matrix conversion, they use the coordinates of an Illuminant, and three Color Primaries, and in addition they use an accurate LUT per color channel that characterizes the capture device (its non-linear behavior between the various coordinates in 3D gamut space). While much more accurate than a simple matrix conversion, it's only more accurate under the exact same shooting conditions (illuminant/lens/camera/CFA/sensor). Luckily, it's possible over a reasonably wide range to recalculate the color response for e.g. a different illumination.

Cheers,
Bart
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Vladimirovich

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles (Capture One ICC handling?)
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2014, 06:54:27 pm »

ICC Camera profiles do not use a simple matrix conversion
you can have a profile stored in icc container for a simple matrix conversion, but certainly it is not what C1 uses.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 03:04:56 pm by Vladimirovich »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles (Capture One ICC handling?)
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2014, 07:42:35 pm »

you can have a profile storied in icc container for a simple matrix conversion, but certainly it is not what C1 uses.

Hi,

Theoretically yes, but it would be a rare case to not also include (inevitable) non-linearities, in the case of a real device instead of a conceptual model. I assumed we're talking about real cameras/scanners.

Cheers,
Bart
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles (Capture One ICC handling?)
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2014, 11:11:51 am »

Hi,

I am quite a bit doubtful about some statements here. I have never seen a paper describing conversion methodology in C1.

I see two conflicts, one is that there has been a long discussion betweem Vladimirovich and Esben HR (who happens to be the engineer handling the color conversion pipeline at P1) and I think Esben quite clearly says that the ICC profile is applied after raw conversion: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=82891.msg672308#msg672308

I guess you need to read the full thread, to make any sense of it.

The other conflict is that it has been reported by "Synn" and also "Paul2660" that profiles for IQ-250 and and even for the CCD cameras give better results in Capture One than the original D800 profile. Now, assuming that the D800 has a more permissive or less "orthogonal" CFA design compared to the CCD cameras it would be a bit absurd that profiles generated for an entirely different CFA would give better results than a profile optimized for the camera (D800) and it's CFA.

If we assume that raw conversion is entirely separate from the IIC-profile, that is, the ICC profile is applied to a converted image, both conflicts would be avoided.

So my guess is that the ICC profiles in C1 are ignorant about CFA and CFA is handled in C1 workflow before ICC profiles are applied.

Regarding accuracy, I have compared C1 to Adobe raw engine a few times and the Adobe engine was always more accurate, at least when measured as Delta E n the colour checker. I am fully aware that the colour checker just represents 16 (or 24) of the several million colours we see. My take is that it is possible that C1 yields better colours the ACR/LR but they are less accurate.

Best regards
Erik

 

Hi,

Theoretically yes, but it would be a rare case to not also include (inevitable) non-linearities, in the case of a real device instead of a conceptual model. I assumed we're talking about real cameras/scanners.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 11:17:59 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Fine_Art

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2014, 01:25:20 pm »

Maybe it is your setup of C1. C1 is widely regarded to have excellent color. The fact your Imatest variances all show a blue vector on the errors and Bart noted a D65 vs D60 difference may let you fix how C1 operates on your system if you are interested. Just the fact so many people put up so many good images using C1 should tell you it is not the software. If C1 has a weakness relative to the other top raw converters it is in an artificial look to fine detail, sometimes even mazing. It is not on color.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles (Capture One ICC handling?)
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2014, 02:57:01 pm »

and I think Esben quite clearly says that the ICC profile is applied after raw conversion: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=82891.msg672308#msg672308

Esben escaped w/o answering the questions fully (Eric Chan to his /Adobe's/ credit gives more clear answers)... and define "raw conversion" first... do you define that as (A) something that ends with demosaicking or (B) something that ends w/ color transform from "scene referred" camera/sensor coordinates into some colorimetric color space (like cieXYZ/D50 or whatever) ?
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Vladimirovich

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles (Capture One ICC handling?)
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2014, 02:59:50 pm »

than a profile optimized for the camera (D800) and it's CFA.
I already suggested a conspiracy theory if there was a need of P1 to make an excellent profile for D800 that eats somewhat into their market (some segments of it)
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Vladimirovich

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles (Capture One ICC handling?)
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2014, 03:03:36 pm »

Theoretically yes, but it would be a rare case to not also include (inevitable) non-linearities, in the case of a real device instead of a conceptual model. I assumed we're talking about real cameras/scanners.
if you are talking about profiles shipped by manufacturer like P1, but if you are talking about homemade profiles - not at all... from one's horse mouth =  http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/38768757
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles (Capture One ICC handling?)
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2014, 03:50:14 pm »

Hi,

Esbens writing indicated that the data are converted into an RGB space before applying ICC. The writing may have been less then clear.

The authors of QPcard have also discussed the issue, saying the same as Esben. They can generate an ICC profile for C1 but will be useless. It is also what Esben clearly has said, you can generate an ICC profile but it will not be based on the RGB that C1 operates on, so it will be useless.

Best regards
Erik

Esben escaped w/o answering the questions fully (Eric Chan to his /Adobe's/ credit gives more clear answers)... and define "raw conversion" first... do you define that as (A) something that ends with demosaicking or (B) something that ends w/ color transform from "scene referred" camera/sensor coordinates into some colorimetric color space (like cieXYZ/D50 or whatever) ?

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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2014, 04:21:07 pm »

Hi,

I don't think so. I am pretty sure that it is about pleasantness. Let's assume that we have a Delta E of say 7. It does say that the Lab coordinates are 7 units of, but the deviation could be bluish, pinkish, reddish, yellowish, reddish or so on. It tells about the amount but not about the direction.

What I have seen a bit is that skin that C1 rendition is a bit yellowish while LR 5 may go more in the direction of pinkish.

A photographer I have great respect for is Tim Parkin, he did not compare LR5 and Capture One, but he looked a lot at colour rendition of cameras. The worst offender he has found is the P45+ and the best one he knows is the Alpha 900, two cameras I also happen to have.

He compared something called SMI (Sensor Metamerism Index) which measures the ability of the sensor to achieve a metameric match for 8 different colours, of course taken from the ColourChecker. He has found a very strong correlation between SMI and his perception of colour quality.

Sony A900   87
Sony NEX7   85
Canon 5D   84
Nikon D5000   83
Nikon D700   83
Samsung GX20   82
Nikon D90   82
Panasonic G3   81
Panasonic GX1   81
Nikon V1   81
Phase IQ180   80
Phase P40   80
Canon 5dMkII   80
Olympus E5   80
Panasonic GH1   79
Nikon D3S   79
Nikon D3X   79
Hassleblad H50   78
Canon 7D   78
Panasonic GH2   77
Fuji X100   77
Phase P65+   76
Fuji X10   76
Leica M9   76
Canon G11   76
Panasonic LX5   75
Hassleblad H39   75
Aptus Leaf   75
Samsung EX1   74
Phase P45   72

As you can see, the Sony Alpha 900 is on the top of the list and the Phase P45 on the bottom. What Tim says is that all the cameras he has access to fit well into this list. Now, this is about sensors and not raw converters, but it is notable that the MF cameras are not near the top of the list. It may also put the issue a little bit in perspective.

My guess is that MFDBs and raw converters are a bit optimised for skin tones and rendering that is perceived to be good under studio lighting, while cameras with high SMI and perhaps Adobe raw processing pipeline are optimised to give accurate, but possibly less pleasant rendition.

The most important factor is probably white balance, 99% of my shots don't include a WB card, and it is very hard to compare colour rendition without a good white reference. The images I used for evaluation included a ColourChecker which I used for WB.

These images show rendering differences between tools and profiles in landscape: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/79-p45-colour-rendition?start=4

And this is a portrait in natural light: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/79-p45-colour-rendition?start=5
In the portraits I added a small patch on my forehead using a sample of the hue of my skin, and I also added a small patch on the shirt. The shirt is a bit outside Adobe RGB, incidentally. The skin sample was taken in the winter and the portrait in the summer, but skin colour is said to be quite constant.

What it shows, I think, is that Adobe Standard is not really nice.

My first test shot with the P45+ resulted in somewhat blush red on the flower I used in the test, although the colours on the colour checker were quite accurate. Generating a DCP profile helped a lot. The accuracy of the ColorChecker card rendition was not improved but my rd flower was rendered red and not bluish red.

Best regards
Erik




Best regards
Erik


Maybe it is your setup of C1. C1 is widely regarded to have excellent color. The fact your Imatest variances all show a blue vector on the errors and Bart noted a D65 vs D60 difference may let you fix how C1 operates on your system if you are interested. Just the fact so many people put up so many good images using C1 should tell you it is not the software. If C1 has a weakness relative to the other top raw converters it is in an artificial look to fine detail, sometimes even mazing. It is not on color.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 04:37:42 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Vladimirovich

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles (Capture One ICC handling?)
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2014, 05:16:11 pm »

Hi,

Esbens writing indicated that the data are converted into an RGB space before applying ICC. The writing may have been less then clear.


well it is not clear if he meant demosaicked into scened referred RGB or something else  ;D

The authors of QPcard have also discussed the issue, saying the same as Esben.

what are you referring to ? to http://www.qpcard.com/en_b2c/dcp_icc_profile ? they are saying

"...Both dcp and icc have a "translation mechanism" that should transform an image with colors represented by digital values from a [scene referred] white balance and [scene referred] intensities into a standardized [image referred] format... They can both do this with a straight, linear matrix type of transform - where the input image as represented by the channels [c1, c2, c3] and the output result is either the base color format CIE XYZ or a standardized RGB profile like Adobe RGB...."

and P1's ICC files indeed have the data guiding the color transform from scene-referred demosaicked data (and that is not in any colorimetric color space) into a proper colorimetric space...


They can generate an ICC profile for C1 but will be useless.

just because they don't generate it in a manner that C1 expects... nothing more implied there

It is also what Esben clearly has said, you can generate an ICC profile but it will not be based on the RGB that C1 operates on, so it will be useless.

I can only refer to http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/38768757

Esben is playing smoke & mirrors game here, that's it.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: A few questions about camera profiles
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2014, 06:53:48 pm »

I have seen some discussion more in depth from QPCard.

The writing below indicates that they will support Capture One in the next release.

Times are changing.

Best regards
Erik


Quote
The authors of QPcard have also discussed the issue, saying the same as Esben.

From: http://www.qpcard.com/en_b2c/applications/qpcalibration.html
Current version is v1.21b
This update: New cameras and an OSX Mavericks compatibility patch (v1.20), the latest cameras and a few bugfixes (v1.21)
Icc profiling for Capture One and Hasselblad Phocus is now in last stage beta, and will be published with the next update!

Raw Converter Compatibility: This application generates profiles for Adobe Photoshop ACR and Adobe Lightroom. Icc profiles usable in linear edit raw converters can also be generated with the ICC plugin. ICC compatibility does not yet include Hasselblad Phocus or Capture One, but the necessary adjustments are currently being reviewed for release.

http://www.qpcard.com/en_b2c/applications/qpcalibration-icc-profile.html

NOTE! Capture One and Hasselblad Phocus both require that you make this profile from tiff files preprocessed in the programs. Since we do not yet support tiff reading we can not, at this stage, support these applications.

Best regards
Erik
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