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Author Topic: Canon, where are you?!  (Read 11792 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: how about looking at entry level models like EPM2, EPL5, NEX3 and NEX5
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2014, 01:14:56 am »

I think that even low end mirrorless will trounce the vast majority of compacts for image quality.

How could anyone remotely sensible disagree with that statement? Isn't it totally obvious that I never meant that lower end mirrorless had no image quality advantage over compact cameras?

Cheers,
Bernard

BJL

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we agree on several factors: the entrenchment of Canon and Nikon, and CAF
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2014, 10:51:41 am »

Again, I don't care about being proven wrong or about mirrorless sales, I don't have any stake in this debate. ;)

I am just trying to find a reasonable explanation as to why mirrorless sales have been a lot less successful than many thought they would be compared to lower end DSLRs, as the current sales figure clearly show.
And as I said, you have given three plausible reasons!  The majority of which revolve around inertia: the inertia of a large proportion of people preferring or trusting more the biggest and most familiar brands of interchangeable lens cameras (I doubt that Sony ever built that image for DSLRs, despite being well-known for compact digital cameras), and/or already having lenses for SLRs.

P. S. The other plausible argument is "CAF": autofocus performance on moving subjects. But advances like on-sensor PDAF seem to be rapidly closing that gap, and I wonder how much more improvement will come from Panasonic's new "Depth from Defocus" idea launched in the GH4. Its goal is to know the direction in which to move focus right from the start, which PDAF also knows but CDAF does not.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 04:09:20 pm by BJL »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: how about looking at entry level models like EPM2, EPL5, NEX3 and NEX5
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2014, 11:02:43 am »

Well, compact cameras are mirrorless, too. The Sony RX-1 will probably trounce most other mirrorless cameras if a 35 mm lens is all you need. I would argue that the RX-1 is a compact.

Best regards
Erik

How could anyone remotely sensible disagree with that statement? Isn't it totally obvious that I never meant that lower end mirrorless had no image quality advantage over compact cameras?

Cheers,
Bernard

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: how about looking at entry level models like EPM2, EPL5, NEX3 and NEX5
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2014, 07:19:51 pm »

Well, compact cameras are mirrorless, too. The Sony RX-1 will probably trounce most other mirrorless cameras if a 35 mm lens is all you need. I would argue that the RX-1 is a compact.

Hello Erik,

Feel like playing with words today?  ;D

I am sure you had understood that what I meant by "compact" in the context of this discussion are cheaper cameras with smaller sensors and without interchangeable lens from which people typically consider upgrading to a higher end model, either a low end DSLR or a mirrorless camera.

The discussion is about why not more of them decide to pick a mirrorless camera and appear to go instead in masses towards lower end DSLRs.

I think that one obvious reason is that the price of higher end mirrorless cameras (those offering a DSLR like shooting experience) is too high, our friend BJL disagrees. I am not sure how the Sony RX1 costing 3 times the price of these cameras is relevant here...  ???

Cheers,
Bernard

BJL

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Re: how about looking at entry level models like EPM2, EPL5, NEX3 and NEX5
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2014, 07:37:12 pm »

I think that one obvious reason is that the price of higher end mirrorless cameras (those offering a DSLR like shooting experience) is too high, our friend BJL disagrees.
Now you are the one playing with words: I never claimed anything abut the prices specifically of "higher end mirrorless camera", and your original claim which I disagree with was about prices of mirrorless system cameras as a whole, with no limitation to "higher end" ones either then or when you listed your selected price comparisons.

Where I disagree with you is that the sales record of mirrorless system cameras as a whole, from the entry level up (where the majority of sales probably are) can be explained by looking at only the prices of the "higher end" models. I could play that game the other way around, by claiming that the lower end DSLRs do not compete with those higher level mirrorless models, because the latter tend to have weather sealing, a VF image that is far larger, and far easier to see in low light conditions, and that can be magnified for more accurate manual focusing ...

See how easy this silly comparisons game is if one declares that the differences in favor of one alternative are decisive while ignoring or dismissing the differences that favor of the other?


Look at it this way: AFAIK, when Olympus, Panasonic, Sony etc. were making DSLRs, the sales advantage of Canon and Nikon was even greater than it is now. If so, the difference DSLR vs CSC seems irrelevant: the phenomenon is adequately explained by Canon and Nikon's "brand strength" alone --- combed with what seem to be deliberately "restrained" attempts at mirrorless systems from the three remaining SLR makers (Canon, Nikon and Pentax).
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 09:33:31 pm by BJL »
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Ellis Vener

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Re: Canon, where are you?!
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2014, 09:09:07 pm »

A photographic truism: The camera in your hand beats two on a dealer's shelf.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: how about looking at entry level models like EPM2, EPL5, NEX3 and NEX5
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2014, 09:32:50 pm »

Now you are the one playing with words: I never claimed anything abut the prices specifically of "higher end mirrorless camera", and your original claim which I disagree with was about prices of mirrorless system cameras as a whole, with no limitation to "higher end" ones either then or when you listed your selected price comparisons.

Where I disagree with you is that the sales record of mirrorless system cameras as a whole, from the entry level up (where the majority of sales probably are) can be explained by looking at only the prices of the "higher end" models. I could play that game the other way around, by claiming that the lower end DSLRs do not compete with those higher level mirrorless models, because the latter tend to have weather sealing, a VF image that is far larger, and far easier to see in low light conditions, and that can be magnified for more accurate manual focusing ...

See how easy this silly comparisons game is if one declares that the differences in favor of one alternative are decisive while ignoring or dismissing the differences that favor of the other?


Look at it this way: AFAIK, when Olympus, Panasonic, Sony etc. were making SSLRs, the sales advantage of Canon and Nikon was even greater than it is now. If so, the difference DSLR vs CSC seems irrelevant: the phenomenon is adequately explained by Canon and Nikon's "brand strength" alone --- combed with what seem to be deliberately "restrained" attempts at mirrorless systems from the three remaining SLR makers (Canon, Nikon and Pentax).

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my initial statement, I always had in mind higher end mirrorless as I clarified a few posts ago, just after I saw your answer in fact. If you go back, you'll see that the models I listed are all high end, my point has always been the same.

You were surprised by this and I clarified my intent.

My comment is valid for high end mirrorless because my view is that many of the photographers upgrading from compact digital naturally tend to consider them first since they feel closer to DSLRs.

I agree that mirrorless did eat some sales away from Canon and Nikon, but the whole point of this thread IMHO is that they did a much smaller dent than could have been expected.

You seem to see my comments as not acknowledging the value of mirrorless but that it is not my point (I do think many of them are excellent photographic tools). I am only trying to put myself in the shoes of those people likely to grow the market. Where does my information come from? From people around me in Japan and central Europe. Most of them don't care much about the size of the viewfinder or about the ability to get perfect focus on static objects thanks to focus peaking. What most of them care about is to see the issues they have with their current compact digital camera fixed.

What are these issues? Ability to focus on moving subjects and to get a decent image in dark indoors situations. Those who don't have these issues... they stick with a smaller compact digital camera. Like it or not, a NEX5 with a zoom lens is considered too large by most of those guys anyway. Between a little too large with a NEX5 and a little bit more too large with a D3300, many end up thinking... I might as well get the real deal, a camera with a viewfinder (again EVF or OVF)... because that remains what a real camera is for a large part of the population.

And when you get to that point, the DSLR is typically cheaper than the higher end mirrorless fitting in that category.

Final clarification from me in this thread.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 07:23:27 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Glenn NK

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Re: Canon, where are you?!
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2014, 03:57:29 pm »

That DP Review bar graph measures the number of clicks on a camera for the current day or two. Every time a new camera is introduced, it goes to the top of the list because people are curious and want to read its description. It so happens that Fuji brought out a number of cameras at CES trade show in late January.

I to to DPR on a daily basis, primarily to see what the bar chart reveals - it seems to me that the graph supports the comment made by Nancy.
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stevesanacore

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Re: Canon, where are you?!
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2014, 10:10:10 am »

I think the price level of the OMD and GH3 families have to drop if they need to compete even with entry level DSLRs from Nikon or Canon. The new OMD-10 looks like a good start. I think most pro's realize how great these little cameras are but it's the consumer market that needs to start buying them. And from what I see, consumers, so far, are just not doing that. I see so many reasons they are not selling up to expectations and I'm not sure Olympus or Panasonic can ever overcome them without throwing billions into advertising, marketing, training etc. Hopefully they will survive and prosper with the market they have, because given enough time, I think people will catch on and their market will grow.

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BJL

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Re: Canon, where are you?!
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2014, 10:41:32 am »

I think the price level of the OMD and GH3 families have to drop if they need to compete even with entry level DSLRs from Nikon or Canon. The new OMD-10 looks like a good start.
I agree that it would be good for the "EVF cameras" to spread down in to the lower price realms currently occupied by the "LCD cameras" that are more aimed at people stepping up from compacts with far smaller sensors and a fixed lens. The Olympus OM-D E-M10 (get all those letters right!) joins the Sony A3000 and perhaps the Panasonic G5 in that trend.
... the consumer market that needs to start buying them. And from what I see, consumers, so far, are just not doing that.
As I said above, I am fairly sure that Olympus, Panasonic and Sony are selling more of their CSCs [mirrorless cameras] than they sold of DSLRs: Sony's continuing push of its APS-C format offerings towards mirrorless E-mount cameras and away from mirrored alpha-mount cameras [SLR and SLT] is the latest evidence of this.  That suggests to me that the "DSLR vs CSC" market share split is primarily due to a "Canon and Nikon vs the smaller brands" (*) split, more than a market judgment on CSCs. A large proportion of people buying an interchangeable lens camera do not look beyond Canon and Nikon, due to their reputation as sector leaders, dominant presence in retail outlets, widespread ownership of Canon or Nikon lenses, etc. That lens ownership issue is of course also an "inertia" advantage for SLR's, though one that will fade with time.


(*) Sony is a big digital camera brand, but in the interchangeable lens camera sector, I do not think it has come close to matching Canon and Nikon for either market share or consumer "mind share".
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uaiomex

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Re: Canon, where are you?!
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2014, 08:48:47 pm »

Canon is on a collision course... with earth
http://fstoppers.com/bestbuy-leaks-the-canon-powershot-g1-x-ii
 ???
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Canon, where are you?!
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2014, 04:05:05 am »

Canon is on a collision course... with earth
http://fstoppers.com/bestbuy-leaks-the-canon-powershot-g1-x-ii
 ???

I bet you that this G1X MKII will sell like hot cakes. Why? Because it is a good improvement over the MKI: faster zoom lens, and starts at 24mm too. Faster AF, and smaller minimum focusing distance, which were two of the main criticisms of the MKI.

This is an "all in one" camera, with sensor larger than 4/3, and fixed zoom lens.

peterottaway

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Re: Canon, where are you?!
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2014, 06:53:54 am »

Well Sony isn't allowed by Apple to acknowledge that they provide the photo senor unit for iPhones let alone provide details about the number of units provided ( about 100 million this last year ? )

So depending on your definition of what a P & S camera is  - depends who is king of the castle.

It also is a contributing reason to why Sony bankers are not overly concerned about loses suffered over the last couple of years.
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scooby70

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Re: how about looking at entry level models like EPM2, EPL5, NEX3 and NEX5
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2014, 08:43:35 am »

How could anyone remotely sensible disagree with that statement? Isn't it totally obvious that I never meant that lower end mirrorless had no image quality advantage over compact cameras?

Cheers,
Bernard


Well, what you actually said was "As far as lower end mirrorless goes, to me they don't really compete with DSLRs, they are more overgrown compact in nature.

Cheers,
Bernard"

You may be playing with words but the impression I get from your posts is that you are perhaps not fully appreciating the image quality it's possible to get from CSC's.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 08:46:49 am by scooby70 »
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uaiomex

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Re: Canon, where are you?!
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2014, 11:53:13 am »

It will sell better than MkI cause this one was a bad seller. This version is so different in character that it should be called something else. It is more akin to Sony RX100 than to the original G1X. Canon is doing its own projects very weakly and now looking somewhere else for success stories. Canon following Sony!  :D  I sold my G1X and bought a Nex 6. I don't regret it especially now that the Nex 6 successor is practically the same thing. It is that good!
Eduardo

I bet you that this G1X MKII will sell like hot cakes. Why? Because it is a good improvement over the MKI: faster zoom lens, and starts at 24mm too. Faster AF, and smaller minimum focusing distance, which were two of the main criticisms of the MKI.

This is an "all in one" camera, with sensor larger than 4/3, and fixed zoom lens.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 11:57:18 am by uaiomex »
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NickNod

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Re: Canon, where are you?!
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2014, 09:24:03 pm »

Canon is still the No.1 camera manufacturer. The question is that they didn't have attractive new flagship while other manufactures (especially sony a7) does a great job in it.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: how about looking at entry level models like EPM2, EPL5, NEX3 and NEX5
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2014, 09:57:15 pm »

Well, what you actually said was "As far as lower end mirrorless goes, to me they don't really compete with DSLRs, they are more overgrown compact in nature.

Cheers,
Bernard"

You may be playing with words but the impression I get from your posts is that you are perhaps not fully appreciating the image quality it's possible to get from CSC's.

Nope, I wasn't speaking about image quality. Only about user experience.

For what it is worth, I currently use a Sony RX100, Nikon V2, Sigma DP2m and Nikon D7100 (at least used to until recently) besides the larger camera. I also used to own a Canon G10 and S90 before they both died on me due to some quality issues.

That pretty much covers all the possible sensor sizes besides 4/3 and I know for a fact that the image quality of the RX100 is excellent with a sensor smaller than 4/3.

There is no way I could not acknowledge that lower end mirrorless cameras have an image quality significantly superior to that of most compact digital cameras.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 06:23:32 am by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon, where are you?!
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2014, 07:14:35 pm »

BJL,

Quote from the latest article by Thom Hogan about the state of mirrorless:

Price If you want to know what's holding mirrorless back from gaining significant market share against DSLRs, this is the item, with maybe one exception. Canon and Nikon just dominate the US$500-800 price range with DSLRs. Plenty of DSLRs. Highly competent DSLRs. DSLRs that use lenses that people may already have in their closets, and for which almost any lens you'd ever desire has been made. Meanwhile, the best of the mirrorless bunch, like the E-M1 and X-T1, sell for more than the Nikon D7100, which is a supremely competent DSLR. Basically, you pay a lot of money for smaller size and weight. Meanwhile, for less money than mirrorless you can get more and better pixels generally (24mp in crop sensor DSLRs at reasonable prices, for example). Mirrorless hasn't cracked the DSLR defenses yet. The exception might be the Sony A7 and A7r. These are lower-than-DSLR price full frame mirrorless cameras. They have a size and weight advantage over the full frame DSLRs with no image quality penalties. Where they fail at equalling the DSLRs is in focus and frame rate performance, particularly with moving subjects. And where Sony is particularly vulnerable for the time being is in lens choice.

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the-new-state-of-mirrorless.html

It seems that the most competent camera market analysis I know of agrees with me on that one...  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 07:24:04 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Canon, where are you?!
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2014, 07:34:43 pm »

Hi,

That is now, but times may be changing.

Personally, I don't think reflex viewing makes a lot of sense in the long run.

Best regards
Erik

BJL,

Quote from the latest article by Thom Hogan about the state of mirrorless:

Price If you want to know what's holding mirrorless back from gaining significant market share against DSLRs, this is the item, with maybe one exception. Canon and Nikon just dominate the US$500-800 price range with DSLRs. Plenty of DSLRs. Highly competent DSLRs. DSLRs that use lenses that people may already have in their closets, and for which almost any lens you'd ever desire has been made. Meanwhile, the best of the mirrorless bunch, like the E-M1 and X-T1, sell for more than the Nikon D7100, which is a supremely competent DSLR. Basically, you pay a lot of money for smaller size and weight. Meanwhile, for less money than mirrorless you can get more and better pixels generally (24mp in crop sensor DSLRs at reasonable prices, for example). Mirrorless hasn't cracked the DSLR defenses yet. The exception might be the Sony A7 and A7r. These are lower-than-DSLR price full frame mirrorless cameras. They have a size and weight advantage over the full frame DSLRs with no image quality penalties. Where they fail at equalling the DSLRs is in focus and frame rate performance, particularly with moving subjects. And where Sony is particularly vulnerable for the time being is in lens choice.

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the-new-state-of-mirrorless.html

It seems that the most competent camera market analysis I know of agrees with me on that one...  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon, where are you?!
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2014, 07:59:55 pm »

That is now, but times may be changing.

Personally, I don't think reflex viewing makes a lot of sense in the long run.

Erik,

Yes, this is now. Prices do change with time.

But it is not easy to just lower prices for the mirrorless guys. Most of them appear to be losing money at the present time.

Canon and Nikon have put in place at great cost a very efficient machine from design to production that enables them to release extremely high performance DSLRs at extremely low prices.

This discussion is not about technology, it is about excellence in execution and the impact thereof on the ability of companies to release products at the right price point relative to their competition.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 08:02:14 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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