Matte Black against Photo Black

[huguito]

Just out of curiosity.
How much difference would I really see printing a fine art paper on photo black?
I have few sheets of Epson Hot Press Bright that I want to try and the 9600 charged with photo black ink
Can you express the loss of depth on the blacks in numbers?    95% as good as Matte?  Even less?
I know is hard to be exact, but I am sure someone here has tried before
Hugo

[bill t.]

I'd be less concerned about the absolute numeric values of the d-max, versus the quality of the modulation in tones near d-max.  IMHO the ability to maintain distinct gradations in the darkest parts of the prints is better than the black-hole effect some people settle for, where everything below say RGB 24 is sacrificed to achieve a killer d-max.

Download this printer test image.  At the very bottom you have a wedge of very dark greys against maximum black.  If you can just make out the RGB 8 square against the black, and all the squares to the right are distinctly different and trend in more of less equal increments, yer' good to go.

http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi048/essay.html

You may also want to experiment with "ink load" versus drying times versus tendency to smear from trivial handling.

[huguito]

Thanks Bill
So the response of an ink set can be "tuned" with ink density and drying times

One of the reasons to ask the original question is that changing blacks in my printer is more expensive than a divorce, and sometimes I am not sure if a specific paper is made for either ink.

Printing is so simple isn't?

[bill t.]

The media type you select is your main tool for tuning the way the inks go down. 

I found this link, looks like Epson recommends Water Color Radiant White for your combo.  WCRW is pretty much the when-in-doubt choice for matte media, regardless of black ink type.

http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/025/426/UltraSmooth%20Fine%20Art%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

[huguito]

I know few other Epson papers, and some third party paper and canvas makers name the watercolor paper as the "media type"
I think that paper must be like a sponge, any time I set the printer to that paper I have to dial ink saturation back or dark areas are blocked and the print comes out looking almost damp.

[Some Guy]

Can you try two images as Bill suggests above with that test image of the little black squares?  One with Matte ink and the other in Photo Black and see?

I probably did that some time ago by mistake but I forget the outcome.  I did notice on some papers where the ink floods, images are not sharp and even some color bleeds over into other areas (yellow into blues).

Personally, I don't see a whole lot of difference with some papers going from Matte Black to Photo Black with an i1 Profile made for each.  If I spray them, even less so.  The "Premier Art Lacquer" I use seems to punch up and even out the black dMax a bit to my eye on canvas.

SG

[bill t.]

Nuthin' pumps up a matte image like turning into a glossy image, as with coating.  Just be aware that for coating the original matte print needs to be a little lighter in the midrange to avoid becoming heavy after coating.  Not that uncoated matte prints lack merit in their own right.

I don't want to imply that d-max is not important, I just wanted to warn that the pursuit of d-max can lead to impoverished tonality if it is taken too far, as with inkloads so heavy they close up a lot of the darkest shades of gray, in addition to creating mechanical problems such as pooling.  You've got to judge a whole print print over a wide range of tones, and not tunnel vision into looking at just this or that.

edit...changed "do" to "don't."  Doh!

[BarbaraArmstrong]

I'm responding to the OP's note that he is sometimes not sure which ink a paper is designed for.  Take a look at the paper's specifications on the manufacturer's on-line page, or even give them a phone call and ask for customer service.  Manufacturers' reps usually like talking about their product. If still in doubt, ask here.  I expect someone here will know and be able to let you know right away.  --Barbara

[langier]

I prints tons of photos on matte with the PK. With a good profile, the prints are fine. If you swap to the MK, you'll get a deeper and more velvety black, but on the 7600-9600 printers the change-over takes a lot of ink and time to swap.

If you have two prints side-by-side one with PK the other MK, you will see a difference and more depth with the MK, but from experice, the PK is fine and most viewers u less told wouldn't notice a difference.

If you have lots of ink and won't need to swap back soon, go for the MK. Better yet, find a used 7600/9600 and run one itch the PK the other MK and you'll have the best of both worlds.

Run the HPB with your PK, let it set overnight and take a look with fresh eyes. If you like it, why do an ink dump & swap if the results are fine?

[huguito]

I am profiling the Epson Hot Press Bright with Photo black ink. As soon as the patches dry and I am done I make few prints to check tomorrow when well dry.
I will keep you guys informed of the results.
Hugo

[bill t.]

Make a 2" wide test strip covering the most heavily black-inked area.  After 24 hours give it the good old thumb smudge test.  If it smears, maybe you've got too much black ink.  For matte paper with the right media type, matte black ink will pass the smudge test in a few hours.  Photo black takes longer.

Long drying times are not necessarily a bad thing.  But at some point you will have to handle and store your PK-on-black prints (possibly in contact with the back of another print or tissue) and the time required for smear-free drying may affect how much black ink you want to lay down, at least if your desire to make prints exceeds the available drying real estate.

PS, drying times can be accelerated by using a dry mount press on the carefully sandwiched print, and by using various kind of drying cabinets.  Have seen print drying cabinets made out of cheap Home Depot storage cabinets with incandescent lightbulbs installed on the bottom.  Cut vents in the top of the cabinet to encourage convection. Use welding wire and alligator clips or binder clips to suspend the prints. Those things are wonderful fire hazards, but they sure speed things along especially with slow-as-molasses, wildly outgassing RC prints.  Cheapest possible drying scheme is to tape the back of your print to the inside of sun lighted, south facing windows, with the emulsion facing the inside of the room.

[huguito]

Reporting after a test.
I profiled Hot Press Bright with Photo ink using a color munki
I printed an image that has lots of deep blacks and transitions in deep shadows  https://www.behance.net/gallery/Oceans/14109891
Printed on Relative colorimetric the deepest part of the shadows got blocked out,  the rest of the print is very pretty.
Printed on Perceptual the deep shadows go better transitions, only the lightest areas lost a tiny bit of contrast.
Printed in Perceptual with ink density to -20 got all washed out

I will coat the first two prints and report

I have to say that comparing to the same image already in my wall printed on Ilford Gold Silk this fine art paper doesn't hold a candle, at least in my eyes.

Hugo

[hugowolf]

But surely you should be comparing MK with PK, not rendering intents?

Brian A

[bill t.]

It will look better when coated.  There is a different tonal aesthetic to matte vs gloss.  That's why they both exist.

For the same image, you would use different post processing to obtain a look that best complimented the image and the particular qualities of the paper.  The optimal interpretations on those two would not look the same.  For instance the Epson matte "press" papers really do well with dignified renditions of portraits, whereas a glossy paper might look sort of cheap and crass.

In a nutshell:
matte=elegant, dignified, subtle, etc.
gloss=bright, colorful, playful, in-your-face, etc.

[jrsforums]

It will look better when coated.  There is a different tonal aesthetic to matte vs gloss.  That's why they both exist.

For the same image, you would use different post processing to obtain a look that best complimented the image and the particular qualities of the paper.  The optimal interpretations on those two would not look the same.  For instance the Epson matte "press" papers really do well with dignified renditions of portraits, whereas a glossy paper might look sort of cheap and crass.

In a nutshell:
matte=elegant, dignified, subtle, etc.
gloss=bright, colorful, playful, in-your-face, etc.

Unfortunately, once put behind glass, much of the distinction is lost.  :-(

[huguito]

You are right, glass kills most subtleties of prints
I use a spray coat to leave prints framed and matted but not under glass, at least on the stuff I hang on my home or give away as gifts.

[nkpoulsen]

I've used matte black on Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl, and it looked great, better than the Photo Black for the particular image being printed.

I was able to do this using the ColorBurst RIP, which gives one the choice of specifying which black to use.