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Author Topic: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)  (Read 29344 times)

feppe

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Re: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2014, 04:11:56 am »

You are really using iProfiler for a monitor which can be hardware calibrated?!
iProfiler does only bend you grafik cards LUT and is not using the internal LUT of your monitor.

No, I don't have the monitor, yet. This is the first high-gamut monitor I would own, and wanted to know if there's more to calibrating it than what I'm used to with Spyder and sRGB monitor that can't be hardware calibrated, which itself is a new concept for me. This is why I opened this thread, to get help.

Apparently hardware calibration has some benefits, namely that it doesn't rely on ICC profiles. This is a big benefit for me, as I'm dual booting Linux Mint and Windows.

Trying to read between your incredulousness, are you saying that I need to use Dell's own software with i1Display to be able to do hardware calibration? And ColorMunki doesn't do that?

D Fosse

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Re: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2014, 06:22:13 am »

Quote
Apparently hardware calibration has some benefits, namely that it doesn't rely on ICC profiles.

That has nothing to do with it. All color management is based on icc profiles, but calibration is not color management. You're confusing calibration and profiling.

Calibration is just a basic linear correction of the display's response. It can be done internally in the monitor ("hardware" based), or through the video card ("software" based).

Color management enters with the display profile. That's a complete description of how the display behaves, in its current (calibrated or not) state. The monitor profile is three-dimensional and has a much higher precision level.

The advantage of hardware calibration is that the monitor's internal LUT operates at much higher bit depth, while the video card is an 8-bit pipeline. Thus you eliminate the risk of color banding and other artifacts, as well as giving much better control over the white point.

(EDIT: Although in some sense it's correct, because the video card LUT is usually stored inside the profile. That's really just because it's a convenient place to keep it, being display specific, but not because it has anything functionally to do with the profile. They're still separate and serve different purposes. With hardware calibration, it's stored in the display and so you could say that it doesn't rely on the profile. But this is just semantics, really...)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 06:37:10 am by D Fosse »
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feppe

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Re: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2014, 03:59:46 pm »

The advantage of hardware calibration is that the monitor's internal LUT operates at much higher bit depth, while the video card is an 8-bit pipeline. Thus you eliminate the risk of color banding and other artifacts, as well as giving much better control over the white point.

Thank you for the explanation. I'm exchanging the puck to i1Display Pro to be able to do hardware calibration!

anvit

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Re: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2014, 02:40:54 am »

hello,
 
sorry to go a little off topic but i have been really confused for a while now and would really be grateful if someone could help me out and suggest which calibration hardware/software would suite me the best.

i do coloring work for comic books and i have 3 dell U2410 and one U2713 and im facing  great color consistence problems across the monitors and as an end result face a problem while my work is getting printed.

i was thinking of investing in either: spyder4pro (as it's economical) but if there is a vast difference in calibration quality then i would opt for Syder4elite or X-Rite i1Display Pro.

which calibration device would best suite dell monitors and my requirements?
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D Fosse

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Re: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2014, 04:32:56 am »

Since you've asked in two threads, I'll paste my answer from the other one:

No wonder you've been confused. Those monitors are wide gamut and an absolute requirement is that they are calibrated and profiled, and used only with fully color managed software. Everything else will be garishly oversaturated.

I'd recommend the i1 Display Pro without question. The sensor is superb, and in addition works with virtually every other calibration solution on the market, including the new Dell calibrator (only for the newer Dells), NEC Spectraview and Eizo ColorNavigator. Lots of options for any future system upgrades.

The current Spyders are also good and much better than their strangely bad reputation. But not as flexible.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2014, 04:50:33 am »

You are really using iProfiler for a monitor which can be hardware calibrated?!
iProfiler does only bend you grafik cards LUT and is not using the internal LUT of your monitor.

I believe that my iProfiler will adjust the rgb/contrast/brightness controls of your display, if supported.

Internal LUTs seems to be heavily used in ads, but poorly supported in practice (i.e. it is cheaper to claim "14 bits full 3D LUT") than to actually supply a (hopefully standardised API) for actually changing it.

-h
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D Fosse

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Re: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2014, 06:00:52 am »

I believe that my iProfiler will adjust the rgb/contrast/brightness controls of your display, if supported.

Internal LUTs seems to be heavily used in ads, but poorly supported in practice (i.e. it is cheaper to claim "14 bits full 3D LUT") than to actually supply a (hopefully standardised API) for actually changing it.

-h

Actually there is such a standard, DDC (direct display control), but implementation is from what I hear all over the map. That's why the only reliable solution is dedicated calibrators such as Spectraview or Colornavigator.

i1 profiler tries to access the display through DDC first, but only at certain settings (can't remember which). If it doesn't succeed it goes to the video card. The problem is that it doesn't tell you, and even calls it ADC instead of DDC to make absolutely sure the user is completely in the dark. But if you see the actual display controls (in the OSD) change before and after, that's because it's had at least partial success. Sometimes it gets the brightness this way, but does the rest by video LUT.
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feppe

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Re: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2014, 05:59:06 am »

Actually there is such a standard, DDC (direct display control), but implementation is from what I hear all over the map. That's why the only reliable solution is dedicated calibrators such as Spectraview or Colornavigator.

i1 profiler tries to access the display through DDC first, but only at certain settings (can't remember which). If it doesn't succeed it goes to the video card. The problem is that it doesn't tell you, and even calls it ADC instead of DDC to make absolutely sure the user is completely in the dark. But if you see the actual display controls (in the OSD) change before and after, that's because it's had at least partial success. Sometimes it gets the brightness this way, but does the rest by video LUT.

My UP2414Q arrived, details in this thread. The monitor supports DDC/CI (Display Data Channel/Command Interface), which you're referring to above. I don't have my i1Display Pro, yet, so can't test it just now.

digitaldog

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Re: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2014, 10:59:29 am »

Actually there is such a standard, DDC (direct display control), but implementation is from what I hear all over the map.
Up there with V4 ICC profiles, more of a mess than anything useful. IF you want DDC, you want a display + software fully designed for it (Spectraview or Colornavigator.)
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WombatHorror

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Re: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2014, 01:55:09 am »

That sounds like a hack. The display profile normally takes care of that part, by specifying the position of each primary. But since we're talking about projectors a full display profile may be overshooting the target.

Many monitor's are not all that linear and even LUT tables don't make up for a lot, so if you look at saturation tracking scales they can be all over the place. One of the few monitors I've seen get those right (and automatically at that!) is the NEC PA series with their 3D LUTs and highly linear pre-calibration. The higher end Eizo I would guess would be the same.

I've seen plenty of people calibrate their regular old monitor and the primaries may look fine and the white point and gamma and think it's all good but then you look at the primary luminance tracking curves and on some it's bad (and there is NO way to fix this) and more often the saturation tracking is not so hot (as away from 100% they may under or oversaturate various colors and start shifting the tints too). A few sets have controls to help adjust the saturation tracking, but not many.
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WombatHorror

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Re: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2014, 01:55:49 am »

That sounds like a hack. The display profile normally takes care of that part, by specifying the position of each primary. But since we're talking about projectors a full display profile may be overshooting the target.

Also when you are talking HDTV and not monitors, most stuff you run on them is not color-managed so profiles do less than zero.
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WombatHorror

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Re: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2014, 02:04:04 am »

That has nothing to do with it. All color management is based on icc profiles, but calibration is not color management. You're confusing calibration and profiling.

Calibration is just a basic linear correction of the display's response. It can be done internally in the monitor ("hardware" based), or through the video card ("software" based).

Color management enters with the display profile. That's a complete description of how the display behaves, in its current (calibrated or not) state. The monitor profile is three-dimensional and has a much higher precision level.

The advantage of hardware calibration is that the monitor's internal LUT operates at much higher bit depth, while the video card is an 8-bit pipeline. Thus you eliminate the risk of color banding and other artifacts, as well as giving much better control over the white point.

(EDIT: Although in some sense it's correct, because the video card LUT is usually stored inside the profile. That's really just because it's a convenient place to keep it, being display specific, but not because it has anything functionally to do with the profile. They're still separate and serve different purposes. With hardware calibration, it's stored in the display and so you could say that it doesn't rely on the profile. But this is just semantics, really...)

Not necessarily. Some sets have fancy internal calibration engines and some even have super high bit 3D LUT internally. With such sets you can calibrate the primary locations, move them all over the place in addition to adjusting tone response curve and white balance internally. The fanciest ones with the 3D LUTs and very linear initial programming barely need anything to be measured, you can just tell them what tone curve to use and they can switch to it instantly without need for measurement and as soon as you move a primary location everything shifts along so that the Y luminance coordinate and saturation tracking curves and all automatically remain perfect.

Some monitor profiles are simple matrix based and contain transform for primary locations and some have look up tables of various complexity from very simple to moderate in many cases to extensive in some, even an extensive LUT in a profile tends to not do the job half as well as something like the 3D LUT system in the best monitors.

Video card LUTs are simple and not 3D and usually only 8bit.

Every program will be affected by internal monitor LUTs. Video card LUTs effect most programs but video games tend to dump them out. The profiling of the monitor info is only used by color-managed software (assuming it's fully color-managed and not partially so).
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WombatHorror

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Re: Calibrating current bleeding edge monitors (Dell 24" 4K)
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2014, 02:10:36 am »

Since you've asked in two threads, I'll paste my answer from the other one:

No wonder you've been confused. Those monitors are wide gamut and an absolute requirement is that they are calibrated and profiled, and used only with fully color managed software. Everything else will be garishly oversaturated.

This particular Dell has an sRGB mode so it's not true to say that it can only be used with fully color managed software.
So do most recent to semi-recent wide gamut monitors. This Dell has a decent sRGB mode and you'll get out of it about what you would from a good regular gamut monitor not having a 3D LUT, maybe a little better in that the primary locations can be set a bit more exactly than most sRGB monitor's actually manage. The NEC PA and higher end Eizo pull of the sRGB emulation a little bit better in that they keep the saturation tracking curves more perfect, these ones actually deliver sRGB BETTER than almost any regular gamut monitor and the mode can be set 100% internally so ANY program will appear to have 100% perfect sRGB calibration.

Quote
I'd recommend the i1 Display Pro without question. The sensor is superb, and in addition works with virtually every other calibration solution on the market, including the new Dell calibrator (only for the newer Dells), NEC Spectraview and Eizo ColorNavigator. Lots of options for any future system upgrades.

Yeah it's a good choice. Barely any copy to copy variation between probes. And it's THE only probe that appears to allow to internally calibrate the UP2414Q and it's a perfect match for the NEC PAxx1 series of wide gamut monitors since that is the monitor series they based the exact parameters for the CCFL wide gamut LCD table in the i1 Display Pro off of and it's also supported for the new NEC PAxx2 series and surely more to come. And it has a wide variety of support in other programs.

But yeah to get to the OP's original question, if you want to calibrate UP2414Q internal CAL1 and CAL2 ONLY the i1 Display Pro probe can do that.
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