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Author Topic: A7r Shutter shake!!!  (Read 63373 times)

DanLehman

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2014, 01:43:55 pm »

it hasn't... GH3 has a sensor from Sony,
GX7 apparently has its from Panasonic itself... it is not there yet,
readout noise in Sony sensors it still better...
so with the better implementations of Sony sensor (like in Olympus cameras - E-M1, etc)
GX7 sensor still worse, with worse implementations  . . .
Apparently the E-M1 has PANY sensor, not Sony
(might be that 10% inferiority to E-M5 BCooter claims):
[from http://chipworks.force.com/catalog/ProductDetails?sku=OLY-E-M1_Pri-Camera

>> The Olympus OM-D EM-1 contains a Panasonic 34231
>> (MN34230 die markings) CMOS Image Sensor
>> with on-chip phase detection pixel array

Interesting!
 ;)
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DanLehman

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2014, 01:51:24 pm »

it hasn't... GH3 has a sensor from Sony,
GX7 apparently has its from Panasonic itself... it is not there yet,
readout noise in Sony sensors it still better...
so with the better implementations of Sony sensor (like in Olympus cameras - E-M1, etc)
GX7 sensor still worse, with worse implementations  . . .

{{edit : As you have separately & previously noted !
here : http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=87043.0
}}

Apparently the E-M1 has PANY sensor, not Sony
(might be that 10% inferiority to E-M5 BCooter claims):
[from http://chipworks.force.com/catalog/ProductDetails?sku=OLY-E-M1_Pri-Camera

>> The Olympus OM-D EM-1 contains a Panasonic 34231
>> (MN34230 die markings) CMOS Image Sensor
>> with on-chip phase detection pixel array

Interesting!
 ;)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 02:00:18 pm by DanLehman »
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Vladimirovich

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #102 on: February 13, 2014, 02:09:50 pm »

As you have separately & previously noted
yes, GX7 sensor is not the same as GH4 one... so it is a race where alternative companies take a lead with each new release...

with E-M1 being the most $$$ camera in Olympus stable and Sony sensor still accessible - why Panasonic was selected for it ? not for meetoo EM10, but for a flagman... I do not think it is just for variety, but probably because of the cost or most probably because for performance in typical applications where while Sony sensor has some advantages Panasonic sensor was still able to give more in some more important areas and probably this time Olympus has good financial arrangement in addition (price from Panasonic semi division vs what Olympus can pay).
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2014, 06:39:13 pm »

Hi,

Another small reflection…

Most cameras using live view have a similar issue, for instance Leica has the same problem when Live View is used.

The problem with the A7r may be a powerful shutter mechanism. Someone measured vibration using speaker coil and an oscilloskope and found that the rewinding of the shutter causes small vibrations but the release of the first curtain causes significant vibration, so rewinding may not be the problem.

I guess that A7 has a more "gentle shutter" and it uses electronic first curtain, so vibrations are probably less. I am pretty sure that the A7 sensor is a more modern design than the A7r sensor, as it also has Phase detection.

I am pretty sure Sony will release a new camera (if camera divison survives), with a new sensor, but the 50 MP sensor make take some time.

Meanwhile, it seems that some of the new Sony EF lenses may be quite decent.

Best regards
Erik

While the problem is perhaps a little overblown, it is very real and the second statement above to me is key.  Sony has designed this camera for very discriminating photographers who are looking for maximum quality.

I’m not sure there is another camera which employs a shutter like the a7r where the shutter has to close then immediately open.  I’m sure there are some, but being full frame adds to the problem because the shutter itself is larger and has more mass.

I’m currently testing my d800e body along side the a7r.  The expectation is they should achieve near equal image quality.  Using a longer lens they don’t unless you take measures to manage the vibration.  On shorter lens I’m still not sure, but certainly less of a problem.

In my particular case, I am sticking with the a7r because I can pretty much eliminate the shutter vibration issues in a couple of ways, and the main appeal to me is freedom to use any glass I want. Since much of that glass is smaller/lighter, carrying things like a long lens support from RRS or even adding some dead weight ala Joseph Holmes, I’m still lighter, smaller and more flexible.

In fact, that’s the problem I’m facing now ... just what lenses do I want to use/buy, now that I can use Leica/Zeiss/Canon/Nikon as well as a bunch of others all of the same sensor.
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Manoli

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #104 on: February 14, 2014, 05:40:09 am »

A few seminal points

While the problem is perhaps a little overblown, it is very real ...  Sony has designed this camera for very discriminating photographers who are looking for maximum quality.
[..]
I can pretty much eliminate the shutter vibration issues in a couple of ways, and the main appeal to me is freedom to use any glass I want.
[..]
the problem I’m facing now ... just what lenses do I want to use/buy, now that I can use Leica/Zeiss/Canon/Nikon as well as a bunch of others all of the same sensor.

In short - nothing can beat mass ! The heavier the lens is, the easier it is to achieve a sharper image handheld. The camera alone is very light, the resolution is high. The frequency of the system seems to be in a status of easy induction of movement when the damping and counterbalance is missing.
[..]
I am building a support part for the Sony A7/7r that will allow secure shooting without shutter induced vibration. The first prototype is already in the works, I will post, when I have a definite result.

Don't keep us in suspense, Stefan ..
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Manoli

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2014, 06:05:30 am »

The shutter shake tests I have seen (Jim Kasson, Lloyd Chambers etc) all seem to be using the same RRS L-bracket, BA7-L. I don't have the bracket so I can't compare directly but I have used an older RRS 'universal' design, the MC-L.

The MC-L does attach to the A7, albeit preventing tilt of the rear LCD, and it does seem debatable whether or not this one-piece monocoque construction is a more appropriate and solid bracket than the 2-piece product, connected by one screw.
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jjj

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #106 on: February 14, 2014, 07:09:55 am »

My suggestion is the em-5 if you don't need a pc slot and you add the right angle grip to add some size.  Both olympus are very well built to a level of leica S quality. and both complicated to set up but very pretty files (though once again the em-5 wins).

Set both olys to nr off, 6fps max for follow focus, tune the turn curve to hold highlghts and open shadows, used portrait setting as a base then turn down saturation, contrast.

Then you'll have a beautiful file.  Also set the evf to more match your computer taking out the green and addings a light amount of warmth.

I'd put the em-5 look next to any camera I've ever used, even to medium format and not for detail but for look.

In lightroom  the file just sings.
That sounds like you are shooting JPEGs. Is that the case?
I used a pocket camera, the Ricoh GX200 and the JPEGs it produced had a really nice look to them. One that was hard to match with the raw files. But the raw files had more data to recover which suited other shots.
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Craig Arnold

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #107 on: February 14, 2014, 08:38:29 am »

Sony has designed this camera for very discriminating photographers who are looking for maximum quality.


I'm not sure that's true at all actually.

It's certainly attracting those people, but was it really made with them in mind? I suspect not. It is clearly a product coming out of their "consumer" division (and I don't think they have a "professional" camera division at all, not like their video cameras for example).

I just ditched all my Canon gear for an A7R and couldn't be happier, but it very much seems to me like the kind of camera that will be used by keen amateurs, who aren't necessarily all that skilled but are looking for decent bragging rights combined with the kind of equipment that will allow them to take excellent pictures if they can improve their skills sufficiently.

36Mp & FF and it doesn't weight a ton - wow I need one of those.

For myself - I hate shooting with tripods, I don't think I've used one in years, everything is handheld and the FE35 and FE55 are tremendous used at 1/200s.

I am almost certainly not getting the best from the camera, but I can say with certainty that I'm getting resolution and pixel level sharpness that makes my recently departed 5D2 look like a P&S.

I also imagine that shutter shock is probably quite amenable to software mitigation - like the new PS anti-blur and Topaz Infocus. Has anyone who has actually managed to induce the shutter shock tried running it through these correction routines?

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peterottaway

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #108 on: February 14, 2014, 09:51:29 am »

The A7 family came out of the RX design group as can be seen. So it didn't come from the same unit that developed such cameras as the A77 and A99 or apparently those working on the Nex cameras. But whether Sony actually has conceptually amateur, enthusiast,P & S designers is open to question.

This seems to be why sometimes like with the early Nex cameras the menu system (?) looked like it was taken from their mobile phone system rather than their A camera group. Many,many nasty words have been spoken about such silly mistakes, although to someone at the time it seemed like a good idea. After all similar requirements to keep things as simple as possible.

After the rather hostile reception and frankly it did make Sony look pretty silly, with the release of the A7 they made it clear that a similar menu system could be expected on future cameras. Well love it or loath it, here's hoping that it is in fact consistent.
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Manoli

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2014, 10:33:17 am »

… it very much seems to me like the kind of camera that will be used by keen amateurs, who aren't necessarily all that skilled but are looking for decent bragging rights ...

You've just got look at the number of professionals on LuLa who've adopted this camera. Not replacing their systems but adding another dimension. The big plus, as Wayne Fox pointed out above, is the interoperability of the A7/E-mount with lenses from almost any manufacturer. Canon t/s, Leica M&R series, Nikon, Leitz etc - all on 36mp sensor.

The uses are many and varied, but definitely not limited to keen amateurs.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2014, 10:52:08 am »

The shutter shake tests I have seen (Jim Kasson, Lloyd Chambers etc) all seem to be using the same RRS L-bracket, BA7-L. I don't have the bracket so I can't compare directly but I have used an older RRS 'universal' design, the MC-L.

The MC-L does attach to the A7, albeit preventing tilt of the rear LCD, and it does seem debatable whether or not this one-piece monocoque construction is a more appropriate and solid bracket than the 2-piece product, connected by one screw.

China has a better answer @ $70 all inclusive :







RRS this time looks worse.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 10:54:31 am by Vladimirovich »
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Craig Arnold

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2014, 11:10:36 am »

You've just got look at the number of professionals on LuLa who've adopted this camera. Not replacing their systems but adding another dimension. The big plus, as Wayne Fox pointed out above, is the interoperability of the A7/E-mount with lenses from almost any manufacturer. Canon t/s, Leica M&R series, Nikon, Leitz etc - all on 36mp sensor.

The uses are many and varied, but definitely not limited to keen amateurs.


No I wasn't saying that. What I was saying was that I would love to know the numbers.

Remember when Apple stopped making "proper" monitors, and moved from Final Cut Pro 7 to Final Cut Pro X?

Effectively they were saying that they don't need 75% of a tiny market of professionals, they would rather make a product that had millions or even billions of potential customers who wanted something that looked like a professional product that wasn't really. Financially I have no doubt that Apple made the right decision, but it sure annoyed the heck out of people who were looking for upgrades from their 30" Apple AdobeRGB monitors and movie editors who could no longer use Final Cut Pro.

I'm sure that actually a lot of the engineers and programmers were upset too; just not the ones with stock options.

Even if 100% of the pro photographers go out and grab themselves an A7R and are annoyed by an issue that none of the amateurs will even notice, it may still be the case that 99% of A7R sales are to enthusiasts in overall terms - people who cannot distinguish shutter shock blur from ordinary camera shake. (Like me for example.)

And who frankly aren't that bothered because the images coming out of the system are ****ing amazing.

I think the A7R is an "okay" camera that produces amazing files and is giving me a chance to produce the kind of prints I've never even been able to approach before. I haven't even printed anything larger than A3 yet, but with the FE35&FE55 and A7R I'm getting a "wow factor" from the prints that I was never able to achieve with my 5D2.

I'm a happy enthusiast. For the price and weight - really amazing. Well done Sony!



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jjj

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2014, 11:31:18 am »

No I wasn't saying that. What I was saying was that I would love to know the numbers.

Remember when Apple stopped making "proper" monitors, and moved from Final Cut Pro 7 to Final Cut Pro X?

Effectively they were saying that they don't need 75% of a tiny market of professionals, they would rather make a product that had millions or even billions of potential customers who wanted something that looked like a professional product that wasn't really. Financially I have no doubt that Apple made the right decision, but it sure annoyed the heck out of people who were looking for upgrades from their 30" Apple AdobeRGB monitors and movie editors who could no longer use Final Cut Pro.
Ditching the pros can be really bad for marketing even if the numbers are nothing like the amateurs. The reason being there is a halo effect from using the same make as the one the pros do. Some firms even make a few high end products specifically to give their lower end mass market product some added kudos.
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Manoli

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #113 on: February 14, 2014, 11:33:23 am »

China has a better answer @ $70 all inclusive :
RRS this time looks worse.

Vladimirovich/
(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=86474.msg709865#msg709865)

Your bracket has the 'L' connected by a single screw. The RRS monocoque design from circa 2008, is exactly that - a one-piece construction that must surely make a difference in terms of rigidity. What effect it has, if any, in helping to eliminate shutter induced vibration on the A7r ( I know you've got the A7) I don't know - yet.

My gut feeling is that adding mass to the body, as has previously been suggested, coupled with a stiffer coupling should make a difference.
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Manoli

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #114 on: February 14, 2014, 11:36:25 am »

Ditching the pros can be really bad for marketing ... The reason being there is a halo effect from using the same make as the one the pros do...

Welcome back, Jeremy!
Loved the pun ..

M
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Telecaster

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #115 on: February 14, 2014, 03:40:50 pm »

Since I'm using my A7r in 16:9 mode for everything except stitched panos—no verticals with this camera at all—I've put a standard Arca-Swiss type QR plate on it. In my experience mitigating "shutter shock" with the camera on a tripod isn't difficult...use the camera's QR plate rather than a lens-mounted one whenever possible, and when not bump up your Tv into the 1/focal length range. Or at least above 1/125th sec. If this means raising the ISO above base value (the horror!) just do it and be happy.

Note: I use this camera mostly handheld with the shutter speed at 2x focal length minimum. I've seen no vibration issues since I started doing this.

-Dave-
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Deep

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #116 on: February 14, 2014, 04:03:36 pm »

Since I'm using my A7r in 16:9 mode for everything except stitched panos—no verticals with this camera at all—I've put a standard Arca-Swiss type QR plate on it. In my experience mitigating "shutter shock" with the camera on a tripod isn't difficult...use the camera's QR plate rather than a lens-mounted one whenever possible, and when not bump up your Tv into the 1/focal length range. Or at least above 1/125th sec. If this means raising the ISO above base value (the horror!) just do it and be happy.

Note: I use this camera mostly handheld with the shutter speed at 2x focal length minimum. I've seen no vibration issues since I started doing this.

-Dave-
If it's shutter shake it's not really from speed related to focal length, more a vulnerable speed range in general, though the effect can be more visible at longer focal lengths.  With a vulnerable lens/body combination, you may find less blur at 1/30 than at 1/60, which seems counter-intuitive!  1/125 may be a shutter speed to avoid for that reason.
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Don

Telecaster

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #117 on: February 14, 2014, 04:30:12 pm »

If it's shutter shake it's not really from speed related to focal length, more a vulnerable speed range in general, though the effect can be more visible at longer focal lengths. With a vulnerable lens/body combination, you may find less blur at 1/30 than at 1/60, which seems counter-intuitive! 1/125 may be a shutter speed to avoid for that reason.

Yes, I should've noted that speeds at or below 1/30th sec. seem safe with the longer lenses I've tried. Personally I'm comfortable using up to ISO 800 and a shutter speed above 1/125 on a tripod with this camera. If the options are either to use an ND filter to drop below the danger zone or increase the ISO to rise above it I'll opt for the latter in most cases.

-Dave-
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OldRoy

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EM5 quirks
« Reply #118 on: February 15, 2014, 05:31:08 am »

For BCooter and other em 5 users:

I gotta rent the Oly em5, sounds great. I have a couple questions though:

Why do u use the add on viewfinder? Is the built in one useable?

I was hoping to get a good prime lens with it, thinking about the Leica pana 25mm 1.4 ( http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/768816-REG/Panasonic_H_X025_Leica_DG_Summilux_25.html ), great lens but will the AF work during video filming? Are there other options in this FOV range?

I keep hearing how u need to "set up the menu" to get the file to look how u want. If your shooting raw why does it matter? Or are u referring to video?

Does the file look ok in C1 pro?
This is a off-topic but having been using the EM5 camera since shortly after it was introduced it has one big problem for me (everyone complains about the labrynthine firmware.) The small size and close proximity of the controls, combined with their modal nature, is simply nightmarish. Even now I find myself constantly in unwanted modes in consequence of accidental button-pressing.

Trying to use the multi-directional control to navigate the focus box to the required position is close to impossible without accidentally hitting the "Ok" or "info" buttons. This is just a single example. I have pretty small hands and I'd describe myself as fairly deft too; this after more than a year of use. Sometimes I feel like hurling the camera in the nearest deep water, of which, at present, there's no shortage hereabouts.
Roy
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