Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65

[synn]

Cameras like the Contax 645 or the Hasselblad V are great cameras but investing today I would not choose them as the base for a digital platform.

Absolutely agree. If one is building a system now, it really wouldn't make much sense to go with the contax in terms of price/ performance and long term viability.

I am actually contemplating a second MF system eventually. To get an older, V-mount, lower MP digital back for my Bronica (Along with the Silvestri adapter plate). Bronica gear is dirt cheap now and is freely available. Would make a nice counterpoint to my Credo.

[JV]

Joris, there where not "reliable sources" on web, neither when Leica introduced the (fully dedicated) Hasselblad H adapter, nor when they introduced the C645 adapter… Still, it was known among those who bothered to ask Leica people. To give you an extra hint, Leica just bought Sinar… and Sinar's latest MF camera was the HY6… They do have some more clients now to serve and keep into the "family", as well as attract some more into that same "family". As of the OPF post, I didn't have to "open" it, for a reason I was already familiar to it!

True and I did indeed overlook that Leica just acquired Sinar...

That being said, I am not sure how many people would still be on a fully digital Sinar Hy6 platform, probably not that many I am just guessing.

In any case, if I were to re-invest in MFD it would probably be Leica, best vision and strategy at this point in time is my feeling.

Also, you can buy the Leica for about half of the price of a Phase One digital back...

[Doug Peterson]

Also, you can buy the Leica for about half of the price of a Phase One digital back...

Depends which system you're comparing to I guess. The p40+ is the closest generationally and spec wise and thousands of dollars less expensive (with a body) than even the older S2.

Yes, a phase IQ280 with an 80mp full frame sensor, built in wifi, retina screen, touch interface, sensor+, and compatibility with tech cameras and several MF systems is more expensive than the subframe 37mp Leica S but I'd argue those two models are not well suited for price comparison.

[Theodoros]

It is common to think of older cameras as "more MFDB" or "less MFDB" compatible, depending on whether they:
A. Have CPU contacts to communicate with their film back, hence the MFDB uses the same contacts (which makes MFDB with the camera communication easier and "internal").
B. Need cocking of the shutter or not…
The Contax (and the Rollei) fulfils the above, IMO, this kind of communication is all an MFDB user will ever need, more than that, (as Hasselblad or Mamyia do - especially Hassy) makes the system more prone to bags and other software problems that are extra sources that can affect reliability. I'm personally a man that doesn't like to change equipment or to upgrade often as others do… whenever I have to make a major decision, it's a careful and well thought one… I'm stuck with Nikon FF for 33 years now and many of my lenses are AI-S bought from new, I was with Bronica for MF for 20 years and had a great 10 lens system, the reason I changed to Contax, was purely because of the "digital revolution" and its compatibility with it, my MFDB is a 16x multishot capable one, with "only" 22mp resolution for single shot, yet, I find that (combined with my Contax lenses) it beats my D800E for anything as far as "single-shot" is concerned, I find no significant or valuable reason that a higher resolution/modern MFDB does anything better in single-shot (well it does, but not significant (or to the extend) to affect the quality or print size  of my photography) and it provides me with what is better image quality by a million years than any of todays 80mp MFDB when it shoots in 16x (most of its use - proffession).
  Never the less, if I was a starter, wanted to fully explore MF and its values, share the knowledge I now have in photography and respected my income more than my ability to spend (as I currently do), I would buy a couple of Bronica ETRSi bodies, a 40, 60, 100m and 150 (PS version) lenses, with a handgrip and three VFs (WLF, rotary and pentaprism), a double stroke grip and 3 screens for "peanuts" (1000 or so) and an Imacon 132c (with Bronica plate fitted - yes they did make it) to go along with it… and I would work professionally, being as capable as with any other camera!

P.S. Has anyone (one that prints huge and REALLY masters the technique and profiles of printing) ever tried to do a 36ppi print out of well shot and processed 22mp fat-pixel "magic" Kodak sensor 10years old MFDB??? …Wait until you try a 33 mp Dalsa one!

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

In favour of the Leica I would say that they developed a lens system for the format they have chosen, and also that they developed an AF capable adapter for using Hasselblad lenses.

Than I guess anyone needs to ask what they need MF for. If they need it for resolution the higher MP backs make a lot of sense.

A back is more flexible as you can put it on different devices.

Best regards
Erik

Depends which system you're comparing to I guess. The p40+ is the closest generationally and spec wise and is far less expensive (with a body) than even the older S2.

Yes, a phase IQ280 with an 80mp full frame sensor, built in wifi, retina screen, touch interface, sensor+, and compatibility with tech cameras and several MF systems is more expensive than the Leica S but I'd argue that's not two models well suited for comparison.

[eronald]

Depends which system you're comparing to I guess. The p40+ is the closest generationally and spec wise and is far less expensive (with a body) than even the older S2.

Yes, a phase IQ280 with an 80mp full frame sensor, built in wifi, retina screen, touch interface, sensor+, and compatibility with tech cameras and several MF systems is more expensive than the Leica S but I'd argue that's not two models well suited for comparison.

Doug,

 Indeed. And of course  we really wouldn't want to compare the Leica glass to the Mamiya lenses ...after all lenses are very secondary in photography.

 BTW - are you a Leica S dealer these days?

Edmund

[JV]

Depends which system you're comparing to I guess. The p40+ is the closest generationally and spec wise and thousands of dollars less expensive (with a body) than even the older S2.

Yes, a phase IQ280 with an 80mp full frame sensor, built in wifi, retina screen, touch interface, sensor+, and compatibility with tech cameras and several MF systems is more expensive than the subframe 37mp Leica S but I'd argue those two models are not well suited for price comparison.

Doug,

I should have compared with the Credo 60 and 80MP backs which is the current Leaf solution for the Hy6.

Those sell for $28K and $34K if I am not mistaken.

Using the Rollei glass on the Leica S ($22K plus say $2K for the adapter if it ever comes true) would still be significantly cheaper.

I would use the Leica for digital captures and keep the Hy6 for film captures and hopefully would be perfectly happy.

And on top of that I would not get irritated but the fact that Leaf dropped their unique rotating sensor/articulating screen solution for the Hy6…

For another $2K I would be able to use my Hasselblad HC lenses as well which would mean I could get rid of my H4X/P30+ combo.

Leica is IMO making smart moves and not only focusing on MP...

Thanks, Joris.

[Doug Peterson]

Indeed. And of course  we really wouldn't want to compare the Leica glass to the Mamiya lenses ...after all lenses are very secondary in photography.

 BTW - are you a Leica S dealer these days?

I'll gladly put the Schneider 55LS, Schneider 110LS, Phase One 150D, and Schneider 240LS against any glass in the world.

Notably I left the 28LS off that list, but it's a somewhat hard comparison since Leica makes no directly equivalent lens (their 24mm is good but only covers their sub-frame sensor - a 21mm would be required for same vertical AOV as the Schneider 28LS on a FF sensor). And of course they would not frustrate you as they do have the rotating sensor and articulating screen.

I do have great respect for Leica's glass. They make great lenses.

Nope - Phase One / Mamiya / Leaf only, glad to own up to my bias with my signature clarifying we don't sell every brand.

[Doug Peterson]

I should have compared with the Credo 60 and 80MP backs which is the current Leaf solution for the Hy6.

Those sell for $28K and $34K if I am not mistaken.

Using the Rollei glass on the Leica S ($22K plus say $2K for the adapter if it ever comes true) would still be significantly cheaper.

I would use the Leica for digital captures and keep the Hy6 for film captures and hopefully would be perfectly happy.

And on top of that I would not get irritated but the fact that Leaf dropped their unique rotating sensor/articulating screen solution for the Hy6…

Fair enough. Though an Leaf AFI-10 and Leaf AFI-12 are still IMO a more apt comparisons and more comparable in price and notably both have sensors that would use a much larger part of the native image circle of your Hy6 and HC glass than an S2 would (though the same as your current P30+).

But yes, I'm very glad to see Leica pushing for the open-platform model of being compatible with as many options as is feasible. They are a bit hamstrung since their sensor and body are integrated and therefore compatibility with other SLR and tech camera bodies is a non-starter. But their push to adapt other lenses into their system is impressive. Any venture into being more open-platform IMO is better than the alternative of mostly or entirely closing your system.

[synn]

Doug,

 Indeed. And of course  we really wouldn't want to compare the Leica glass to the Mamiya lenses ...after all lenses are very secondary in photography.

 BTW - are you a Leica S dealer these days?

Edmund

I have seen nothing; artistic or brickwall-ey that suggests that these mythical Leica lenses are head and shoulders above the new P1 glass. Besides, if their lenses are so flawless, why would Leica be making AF adapters for other brand lenses? Perhaps, they know deep inside that for all the hyperbole that they are experts at, their lenses are still ridiculously overpriced, even by MF standards?


All that aside, the S2 is still a "Barely medium format", 3:2 ratio system with no ability to use the back on anything else. Basically, it checks none of the boxes that I looked at while contemplating an MF system. Personally speaking, even if the system was half the price of my Credo kit, I wouldn't have considered it.

[Theodoros]

I wonder why the vast majority of pros,  don't use 60 or 80mp modern backs, but settle down for older 39-kodak or 33-salsa or even 22mp backs… does anybody knows the reason? Also… Leica suggests (through an interview of the CEO in DPR) that they make more than 25% of the MF market total worth and this is increasing rapidly… Why is this?
 
An independent MFDB obviously is better to use on a view or technical camera than one converting his P2 or P3 rear board to fit his S2 on it… but, maybe the later is good enough? …Or is it that people prefer to keep their older backs (22 or 33 or 39mp), use them on their view or tech cameras and additionally buy an S2 body and use their lenses on it? After all, what is the cost if one buys an old 22mp back to use on his view camera? 1500-2500 maybe? What he would miss if he was to do that than investing on a new hi-res back and "digital" lenses on his view camera? …would customers be more satisfied than they where 10 years ago?
 
It seems (to me) that Leica caught the right "pulse" of the market… They just made a camera that is familiar to both FF DSLR users and at the same time keeps the MF qualities that the MFDB user doesn't want to be disengaged with… Additionally, they sell their DSLR at a price of an MFDB but offer the ergonomics of using it as if it was a DSLR and more than that, one keeps his lenses… perfect! Now, if one is also using his MFDB on a camera with movements, an older back (any mount) combined with a (ridiculous cost-superb lens quality) Fuji GX680 should solve all his problems and if he wants the absolute best image quality available than any back by far... he better make that old back a multishot one which will make any Credo or IQ180 high-res. back to look like a VW if compared against a Ferrari.

[eronald]

For the currently increasing population of super-rich, the S is fairly cheap and also familiar; with its fairly fast sensor "normal" users will get clean images handheld, without strobes or tripod. It's a good product.

I have never met anyone using the S, so I don't think a lot of pros are using the S, the "pro" aura is just used to lure in the amateurs. Think of it as recruiting pro sports players to use a certain type of shoe, golf-cub or racket - the pros are essential for marketing, but a tiny proportion of sales.

Edmund

I wonder why the vast majority of pros,  don't use 60 or 80mp modern backs, but settle down for older 39-kodak or 33-salsa or even 22mp backs… does anybody knows the reason? Also… Leica suggests (through an interview of the CEO in DPR) that they make more than 25% of the MF market total worth and this is increasing rapidly… Why is this?
 
An independent MFDB obviously is better to use on a view or technical camera than one converting his P2 or P3 rear board to fit his S2 on it… but, maybe the later is good enough? …Or is it that people prefer to keep their older backs (22 or 33 or 39mp), use them on their view or tech cameras and additionally buy an S2 body and use their lenses on it? After all, what is the cost if one buys an old 22mp back to use on his view camera? 1500-2500 maybe? What he would miss if he was to do that than investing on a new hi-res back and "digital" lenses on his view camera? …would customers be more satisfied than they where 10 years ago?
 
It seems (to me) that Leica caught the right "pulse" of the market… They just made a camera that is familiar to both FF DSLR users and at the same time keeps the MF qualities that the MFDB user doesn't want to be disengaged with… Additionally, they sell their DSLR at a price of an MFDB but offer the ergonomics of using it as if it was a DSLR and more than that, one keeps his lenses… perfect! Now, if one is also using his MFDB on a camera with movements, an older back (any mount) combined with a (ridiculous cost-superb lens quality) Fuji GX680 should solve all his problems and if he wants the absolute best image quality available than any back by far... he better make that old back a multishot one which will make any Credo or IQ180 high-res. back to like a VW if compared against a Ferrari.

[Theodoros]

Had the Leica S been capable of utilising the leaf shutters independently of the focal plane shutter I might well be using it now.

As much as I admire Phase backs...but I've said it all before.

But they do… as long as you shoot LS, the focal plane "just opens" as if it was never there… Mamyia and P1 are the same also. In fact, if a leaf shutter lens is used in both Mamyia or Leica, the focal plane's action, it is no different than the "curtain" that Hasselblad uses on either their "V" or the "H" camera. Only Bronicas and Rolleis and Fuji GX680 are different (where the mirror also blocks the light to leak towards the imaging area) in their design, but this doesn't affect action, since the leaf shutter can't start exposure unless the mirror has moved fully up.

[Theodoros]

For the currently increasing population of super-rich, the S is fairly cheap and also familiar; with its fairly fast sensor "normal" users will get clean images handheld, without strobes or tripod. It's a good product.

I have never met anyone using the S, so I don't think a lot of pros are using the S, the "pro" aura is just used to lure in the amateurs. Think of it as recruiting pro sports players to use a certain type of shoe, golf-cub or racket - the pros are essential for marketing, but a tiny proportion of sales.

Edmund

I can ensure you, there are more pros using Leica S than 60 or 80mp backs… Never the less, as I said before, most pros dot use either, they mostly use much older 39 or 33 or 22 backs and some are wise enough to have invested on multishot versions of the same backs while they could.

[Doug Peterson]

I ensure you, there are more pros using Leica S than 60 or 80mp backs…

My guess is your statement is wrong by around an order of magnitude. I'll admit this is a guess, and not something I can "assure" anyone of. But it is based on 7 years doing medium format sales full time at the first and second largest medium format dealers in the largest medium format pro market in the world.

As reference in 2013 we sold more 60mp backs to pros this year than any other resolution. Refurbished IQ160s and pre-owned P65+ both sold very well to the pro market and a healthy share of IQ260 sales went to pro architectural/interior/resort shooters.

[eronald]

Doug,

 I wish you every luck in selling your product line, new and refurbished, to your circle of customers, pro and prosumer alike; but let us not forget that even in the game of Bridge one does better not only by being a Master player, but also by getting better dealt cards - and the cards you are now dealt, as a Master Salesman, IMHO could be considerably improved.

Please do not take this as an ad-hominem attack, as you are well known as a helpful and knowledgable specialist dealer.

Edmund

My guess is your statement is wrong by around an order of magnitude. I'll admit this is a guess, and not something I can "assure" anyone of. But it is based on 7 years doing medium format sales full time at the first and second largest medium format dealers in the largest medium format market in the world.

As reference in 2013 we sold more 60mp backs to pros this year than any other resolution. Refurbished IQ160s and pre-owned P65+ both sold very well to the pro market and a healthy share of IQ260 sales went to pro architectural/interior/resort shooters.

[Theodoros]

1.Shutter released
2.Mirror goes up
3.Aperture diaphragm closes down to desired f-stop
4.Focal plane shutter opens
5.Camera starts exposure electronically
6.Central shutter closes
7.Aperture opens
8.Focal plane shutter closes
9.Central shutter opens
10.Mirror returns

Thanks, but I'll take the risk with the Hasselblad curtain over that Leica shutter.

Are you sure of the series? …there is no reason for the focal plane not to be open just after the leaf shutter is closed and before the exposure would take place… just like Hussy's curtains do.

[Theodoros]

My guess is your statement is wrong by around an order of magnitude. I'll admit this is a guess, and not something I can "assure" anyone of. But it is based on 7 years doing medium format sales full time at the first and second largest medium format dealers in the largest medium format pro market in the world.

As reference in 2013 we sold more 60mp backs to pros this year than any other resolution. Refurbished IQ160s and pre-owned P65+ both sold very well to the pro market and a healthy share of IQ260 sales went to pro architectural/interior/resort shooters.

I am sure some pros do buy new ultra high res backs… but are they enough to be considered as significant percentage when compared to those using the older 22, or 33(Dalsa), or the 39mp backs? …and do those who use MS backs replace them for single-shot high res backs?

[JV]

My guess is your statement is wrong by around an order of magnitude. I'll admit this is a guess, and not something I can "assure" anyone of. But it is based on 7 years doing medium format sales full time at the first and second largest medium format dealers in the largest medium format pro market in the world.

As reference in 2013 we sold more 60mp backs to pros this year than any other resolution. Refurbished IQ160s and pre-owned P65+ both sold very well to the pro market and a healthy share of IQ260 sales went to pro architectural/interior/resort shooters.

Leica has been quite open with their numbers.

They claim to have sold 1,200 units in 2012 and estimate the total market at about 6,000 units per year.

For a new solution in a very niche market that is pretty good.

I assume Phase sells more than 1,200 units but given that they do not want to share their numbers with us it really is anybody's guess...

[eronald]

Leica has been quite open with their numbers.

They claim to have sold 1,200 units in 2012 and estimate the total market at about 6,000 units per year.

For a new solution in a very niche market that is pretty good.

I assume Phase sells more than 1,200 units but given that they do not want to share their numbers with us it really is anybody's guess...

I think Phase are seeing significant return on investment with their solutions for industrial users, and institutions with document capture needs who appreciate the reliable robust backs, excellent files and very good software.

Handheld photography is taking the backseat: It seems they have devoted their finite resources for instance to a body that "was designed from the ground up exclusively for aerial photography."

http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/iXR.aspx
http://www.aerial-survey-base.com/blog/phaseone-ixa-aerial-survey-camera-system-family/

I find it wonderful that Phase have capitalized on their existing technology to serve some lucrative niche markets, and invested appropriately.  Also, one does think of all the museums now needing to digitize their collections, a field in which Phase One's proven high resolution backs coupled with an industrial body provide a clear competitive advantage. On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that the same company will be able to introduce *two* innovative bodies in a row.

I guess if and when Hassy or Leica finally get real traction in the rich guy prosumer business, Phase will announce a new toy, promise upgrades when it is available, or just turn into a defense contractor. Or maybe they will retain the commercial photography line as a lucrative mark-down outlet for sensors that do not meet the stringent homogeneity criteria imperative for remote-sensing applications, photogrammetry and scientific museum work.

At this point I'm embarrassed to say that the Leica S, a reasonably modern super-tough optical-viewfinder design for field handheld use by individual photographers with limited technical skills, almost looks like a value proposition, and I am starting to understand its marketing goals.

Of course, if we get to see a new Phase handheld body soon that is not a simple Phamiya refresh, that would be delightful, but I believe in what I see, and for now that is a robust innovative and integrated aerial photography solution

Edmund